On the socialization of children

[AFK]

On the one hand, it is a fascinating topic for conversation.  On the other hand, it really doesn't matter.  Even if some form of consciousness or personality exists after death, there seems to be no mechanism for that existence to commune with mortal existence.  So it would seem to be inconsequential for the mortal plane. 

Yeah, I'm digging the passionate discussion.

Would you feel comfortable talking about what you told or will tell your little ones?

Let's talk about sex!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

On the one hand, it is a fascinating topic for conversation.  On the other hand, it really doesn't matter.  Even if some form of consciousness or personality exists after death, there seems to be no mechanism for that existence to commune with mortal existence.  So it would seem to be inconsequential for the mortal plane. 

Yeah, I'm digging the passionate discussion.

Would you feel comfortable talking about what you told or will tell your little ones?

Let's talk about sex!

[Cramulus]

So, what process did you use to decide that God is most likely not the MS paperclip?

well, what hawk said, but also mostly intuition

I mean, the image of the MS Paint paperclip handing the stone tablets to moses with a "Did this solve your problem? yes/no" dialogue box doesn't seem congruent with the rest of my understanding of the universe.

On the one hand, it is a fascinating topic for conversation.  On the other hand, it really doesn't matter.  Even if some form of consciousness or personality exists after death, there seems to be no mechanism for that existence to commune with mortal existence.  So it would seem to be inconsequential for the mortal plane. 

We are living in a world in which the politicial opinions of guys who died like 300 years ago are still extremely relevant. I posit that the soul/personality of the USA's founding fathers (for example) is still very much alive. Their bodies/brains are not around to experience it, but we keep their soul immortal through our actions and our memory of them.

As a kid, I think I would have preferred this explanation of death to the one where you die you totally dissapear and then watch from heaven like ben kenobi.

and to clarify, I'm again talking about my personal point of view which regards your life as something more than the body you occupy.

I don't believe in a soul in the sense that its some ghost of you that gets stored in the astral cocktail party after your body dies. I prefer to think of your soul as the part of you that the world experiences.



Hm, I don't think I've ever said it out loud like that, so I'll have to think on it some more. thumbs up for this thread.

[AFK]

But seriously, the question has come up a few times.  My daughter is 6 now, and she understands that people and animals die and aren't around anymore.  She has developed the idea that they go somewhere.  She has even mentioned heaven once or twice.  I don't know exactly where this comes from.  It's either other kids at school, or my mother in law.  My wife and I don't talk about religion.  She is a reformed Catholic, I'm a reformed Baptist.  Religion just isn't something we talk about.  We aren't actively shielding my daughter from religion, but, we're not exactly putting down the menu of choices for her either.  We're letting her discover her world on her own terms, and answering questions as best as we can when they come up.  

The one about death is tricky.  And it isn't as simple as knowing scientifically whether or not life stops cold in its tracks when you croak.  6 year olds can't wrap their heads around that without becoming paralyzed with fear.  So you can't just say.  "You die.  The end."  So, what we try to do is redirect the conversation to put emphasis on the journey.  That everybody is afforded this life to live and to not focus on the end of it, but, to maximize the time leading up to the end.  

It seems to work for now.  But then again, she is 6, and I'm pretty sure the exploits of iCarly and Spongebob weigh more heavily on her right now.  

[Adios]

That we simply don't know and we will find out when our time comes.

[Kai]

That we simply don't know and we will find out when our time comes.

But given that the mind is a property of our physical bodies, the most parsimonious answer is "nothing". So I'm going to live like there's nothing for me after.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

But seriously, the question has come up a few times.  My daughter is 6 now, and she understands that people and animals die and aren't around anymore.  She has developed the idea that they go somewhere.  She has even mentioned heaven once or twice.  I don't know exactly where this comes from.  It's either other kids at school, or my mother in law.  My wife and I don't talk about religion.  She is a reformed Catholic, I'm a reformed Baptist.  Religion just isn't something we talk about.  We aren't actively shielding my daughter from religion, but, we're not exactly putting down the menu of choices for her either.  We're letting her discover her world on her own terms, and answering questions as best as we can when they come up.  

The one about death is tricky.  And it isn't as simple as knowing scientifically whether or not life stops cold in its tracks when you croak.  6 year olds can't wrap their heads around that without becoming paralyzed with fear.  So you can't just say.  "You die.  The end."  So, what we try to do is redirect the conversation to put emphasis on the journey.  That everybody is afforded this life to live and to not focus on the end of it, but, to maximize the time leading up to the end.  

It seems to work for now.  But then again, she is 6, and I'm pretty sure the exploits of iCarly and Spongebob weigh more heavily on her right now.  

Thanks, that's a really good angle. I like that.

[Adios]

That we simply don't know and we will find out when our time comes.

But given that the mind is a property of our physical bodies, the most parsimonious answer is "nothing". So I'm going to live like there's nothing for me after.

That has worked for over 5 decades for me.

[Kai]

That we simply don't know and we will find out when our time comes.

But given that the mind is a property of our physical bodies, the most parsimonious answer is "nothing". So I'm going to live like there's nothing for me after.

That has worked for over 5 decades for me.

And none of this Pascal's Wager shit either.

I bet Blaise was tossed into hell for being a smartass.

[P3nT4gR4m]

That we simply don't know and we will find out when our time comes.

But given that the mind is a property of our physical bodies, the most parsimonious answer is "nothing". So I'm going to live like there's nothing for me after.

I don't even rationalise it that deeply. Given that I know there is life before death I'm going to live the hell out of it. If there is life after then I'll get around to that later. If there's some wanker judging me based on what I'm doing now then fuck him - twat should explained what he wanted from me from the off. 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

My 4-year-old has discovered that people die when they get old. He apparently has some level of understanding about what 'death' is because he knows he doesn't want to. In some cases it is clear that this leads to behavioral problems (If I act like a big kid, that means I'm growing up. If I grow up, I will get old and die. Therefore I shall be a snotty little bastard and refuse to behave myself.) Neither I nor my wife know what to make of this or how to properly handle it. We change the subject and tell him not to worry about it, but that isn't a plan for the long-term, especially if his questions persist.

This ties into the religious question because my family is extremely religious although I'm not, and neither is my wife. But were these questions to make their way to my parents' ears, the first thing they would tell my son is "Blah blah Jesus, sins, hell, heaven, blah blah blah," and because I don't want my child's first apparently substantial answer to his questions about death to come from people bent on spoiling his freedom of belief, I feel like I must preemptively their inevitable assault on his mind with a bit of "don't ever believe anything the Jesus freaks tell you." Problem with that is I don't want to spoil his freedom of belief, either.

So I really don't know. Maybe I will teach him something absolutely nonsensical, just so he can continue to believe that until he's old enough to critically think it into the trash. That way he'll be somewhat immune to the nonsense my parents would have him believe forever, since he has something filling that space already. When he's old enough to recognize my story is nonsense, maybe he'll be old enough to also recognize their story as nonsense too. This plan makes me a liar and completely untrustworthy, but by the time he's 15, I'll be that anyway.

[Telarus]

Wow, 10 pages from a tongue-in-cheek pseudo-voodo reference to an egregore, eh?

It's been a good conversation so far. I have a final today, but, I'll get back to this and that damn Karma thread later tonight.


Kai, let's talk about 'metaphysics'. I think that you're confusing Buckminster's usage of the word with Pat Robertson's usage of the word.

160.00 Generalized Design Science Exploration

   161.00  Science has been cogently defined by others as the attempt to set in order the facts of experience. When science discovers order subjectively, it is pure science. When the order discovered by science is objectively employed, it is called applied science. The facts of experience are always special cases. The order sought for and sometimes found by science is always eternally generalized; that is, it holds true in every special case. The scientific generalizations are always mathematically statable as equations with one term on one side of the equation and a plurality of at least two terms on the other side of the equation.

   162.00 There are eternal generalizations that embrace a plurality of generalizations. The most comprehensive generalization would be that which has U = MP, standing for an eternally regenerative Universe of M times P, where M stands for the metaphysical and P stands for the physical. We could then have a subgeneralization where the physical P = Er· Em, where Er stands for energy as radiation and Em stands for energy as matter. There are thus orders of generalization in which the lower orders are progressively embraced by the higher orders. There are several hundred first-order generalizations already discovered and equatingly formalized by scientist-artists. There are very few of the higher order generalizations. Because generalizations must hold true without exception, these generalizations must be inherently eternal. Though special-case experiences exemplify employment of eternal principles, those special cases are all inherently terminal; that is, in temporary employment of the principles.

   163.00 No generalized principles have ever been discovered that contradict other generalized principles. All the generalized principles are interaccommodative. Some of them are synchronously interaccommodative; that is, some of them accommodate the other by synchronized nonsimultaneity. Many of them are interaccommodative simultaneously. Some interact at mathematically exponential rates of interaugmentation. Because the physical is time, the relative endurances of all special-case physical experiences are proportional to the synchronous periodicity of associability of the complex principles involved. Metaphysical generalizations are timeless, i.e., eternal. Because the metaphysical is abstract, weightless, sizeless, and eternal, metaphysical experiences have no endurance limits and are eternally compatible with all other metaphysical experiences. What is a metaphysical experience? It is comprehending the relationships of eternal principles. The means of communication is physical. That which is communicated, i.e., understood, is metaphysical. The symbols with which mathematics is communicatingly described are physical. A mathematical principle is metaphysical and independent of whether X,Y or A,B are symbolically employed.

Given that model. Are 'you' purely physical?

Or is the 'special-case-you' that we are experiencing right now physical, but generalized pattern of 'you' metaphysical and eternal?

Bucky claims Mind is metaphysical, and that each human consists of a 'Pattern Integrity' which follow all of the rules of pattern integrities (example: the pattern 'Wave' being able to manifest in water, milk, or kerosene when a rock is thrown into it).

[PopeTom]

My 4-year-old has discovered that people die when they get old. He apparently has some level of understanding about what 'death' is because he knows he doesn't want to. In some cases it is clear that this leads to behavioral problems (If I act like a big kid, that means I'm growing up. If I grow up, I will get old and die. Therefore I shall be a snotty little bastard and refuse to behave myself.) Neither I nor my wife know what to make of this or how to properly handle it. We change the subject and tell him not to worry about it, but that isn't a plan for the long-term, especially if his questions persist.

Problem solved

If he hasn't discovered goth girls by the time he's 18 send him to me and LMNO.

[Lord Cataplanga]

You know sometimes when you're really tired and want to sleep for a long time, you just blink, and suddenly 10 hours have passed and you didn't notice?
That's exactly what it feels like when you are under general anesthesia.
I always figured being dead would feel like that too, except you never wake up.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I have religious beliefs. Maybe (probably) this puts me in the minority here, but I really don't care. I'm not here for my beliefs, but for Discordia. I don't have children at the moment, but when I do, and they start asking questions, I will tell them, "look, I believe that when you die, you kinda dream for awhile and then come back and forget everything from before. This is not what my father and mother and step father believe. My father believes you go to heaven and spend eternity with Jesus. My mother believes it doesn't matter as long as you're good, and then you go to heaven and have happy fun time until the universe dies too, and you still have happy fun time. My step father believes that this is it and that's all there is to it. I broke away and chose my own beliefs. I expect you to do the same and evaluate for yourself what you find the most comfortable. In the meantime, know that there is anecdotal evidence for and against (Hawk) afterlife. Ultimately what matters is that you live this life well and to the fullest. I think you get another chance but I could be wrong. Live like there is no tomorrow and hope for the best." Maybe I'll put it in more understandable terms, but I think that's the tack I'll take: I don't know but this is what I think. Look into it and tell me what you think.


On a side note, Hawk's experiences got me thinking. It seems like people have different NDE's. Sorry if this is threadjacking but it seems relevant. Does what you expect to happen color your experiences when dying? Like, some people see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm presuming that they are afterlifers. I'm going to assume Hawk expects nothing, and got nothing. Maybe I'm not explaining this well, butdoes one see what they want to see?