Is karma real? (Short answer: HAHAHA not for you, you stupid hippy.)

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Who the hell are you calling an amoral context?

[NotPublished]

I prefer to see Karma as 'If I do [x], [y] could happen'

Depends whether its a long-term plan or a short-term plan to, I exercise now in the hope that by 6 months later I will have a good body,

I don't like viewing Karma as something to do with next generation of lives, anything that doesn't have to do with my lifespan really...

As I said, If I do [x], [y] could result, and its my fault (regardless if its good or bad); isn't that karma?

Sometimes shit happens to.

Though perhaps this is because of mistakes that happened with people in the distant past, perhaps this is where the idea of karma of other life times happens?

Instead of treating this sort of karma as individualised - because its not my fault that people did things as they did in the past, but it still efects me regardless... well, I don't know of any terms; maybe someone can come up with something. Isn't that still alongside the concept of Karma?

[Telarus]

http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html

Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.

I always liked that view

This was the piece of RAW's work that made me really dig into the history behind the term/concept KARMA, and I traced it back to it's sanskrit roots.

Karma can be summed up in a single phrase:

"Formations have inertia."

And Kai nails it. Specifically KARMA means 'Action', and Action propagates outwards, i.e. has inertia.

The paradigm at the time, though, had as one of it's game rules that reality consists of the physical and the mental (metaphysical). But the term KARMA was one of the terms that did not differentiate between them unless that was specifically part of the context (and always implied that the other aspect is involved in any event that includes a consciousness).

So some-one throws a rock at your face. The rock has inertia and when it meets your face that imparts force which causes damage. Physical Karma.

But the rock-throwing-event also carries the metaphysical inertia of 'Hate/Violence' which doesn't stop at your face. It's in your mind now, and you've got to deal with it. Because it has inertia, the easiest thing to do is let it flow out of you in a violent act (acting otherwise takes self control). Unfortunately, metaphysical things can be given away and still held onto (anybody want an MP3?), so even though your violent act has purges all of the immediate hate chemicals your system, you still carry the memory and some of the inertia to do violence. Metaphysical Karma.

The metaphysical "Wheel of Karma" has sections for Devas, Demons, Hungry Ghosts, Animals, etc, etc. But all of the original Buddhist writings are about the NOW. He may have had to resort to metaphor to get it through to some of the disciples, which were stuck in hindi bureaucracy metaphysics, but that was just to communicate the concept in their terms.

Reincarnation happens in the NOW. If you let Desire rule your life, you become a 'Hungry Ghost' in the NOW. If you let "Trying to help" rule your life to the point of ignoring the negative consequences of your actions, your become a 'Deva' in the NOW.

The You that is reading this is not the You that walked through the door (unless you've held onto all the same Karma you had since you've walked through the door, and then the illusion that 'it's the same you' is easy to buy into).

RAW's daughter found the center of the wheel, and refused to let the karmic inertia trap her into any of the cycles. This is what is meant by the 'middle path'.

[Lies]

http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html

Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.

I always liked that view

This was the piece of RAW's work that made me really dig into the history behind the term/concept KARMA, and I traced it back to it's sanskrit roots.

Karma can be summed up in a single phrase:

"Formations have inertia."

And Kai nails it. Specifically KARMA means 'Action', and Action propagates outwards, i.e. has inertia.

The paradigm at the time, though, had as one of it's game rules that reality consists of the physical and the mental (metaphysical). But the term KARMA was one of the term that did not differentiate between them unless that was specifically part of the context.

So some-one throws a rock at your face. The rock has inertia and when it meets your face that imparts force which causes damage. Physical Karma.

But the rock-throwing-event also carries the metaphysical inertia of 'Hate/Violence which doesn't stop at your face. It's in your mind now, and you've got to deal with it. Because it has inertia, the easiest thing to do is let it flow out of you in a violent act (acting otherwise takes self control). Unfortunately, metaphysical things can be given away and still held onto (anybody want an MP3?), so even though your violent act has purges all of the hate chemicals your system, you still carry the memory and this some of the inertia to do violence. Metaphysical Karma.

The metaphysical "Wheel of Karma" has sections for Devas, Deamons, Hungry Ghosts, Animals, etc, etc. But all of the original Buddhist writings are about the NOW. He may have had to resort to metaphor to get it through to some of the disciples, which were stuck in hindi bureaucracy metaphysics, but that was just to communicate the concept in their terms.

Reincarnation happens in the NOW. If you let Desire rule your life, you become a 'Hungry Ghost' in the NOW. If you let "Trying to help" rule your life to the point of ignoring the negative consequences of your actions, your become a 'Deva' in the NOW. The You that is reading this is not the You that walked through the door (unless you've held onto all the same Karma you had since you've walked through the door, and then the illusion that 'it's the same you' is easy to buy into).

RAW's daughter found the center of the wheel, and refused to let the karmic inertia trap her into any of the cycles. This is what is meant by the 'middle path'.

The middle path, AKA the Primrose path?

For some reason, I'm reminded of this...

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

That's a great clarification of the Buddhist version of karma, Telarus, thanks for that.

But, it's meant differently by Sikhs, Jainists, Neo-pagans, New Agers and so on—everybody has been putting their own spin on it since the Hindus coined the term.

[Telarus]

You're welcome!

I've been digging in to the Jainists, they're very interesting (considering they gave us one of the Apostles, Sri Syadasti). I'm vaguely familiar with Sikhism, although equally as fascinated.

Neopagans and New Agers are deluded on this matter, but they mostly have access to faulty source material.

I really think the neopagan/newage version tries to shoe-horn the 'karma' metaphor into an attempt at explaining the 5th circuit neuro-somatic feed-back loop (where those sort of 'you get what you give' propositions, like the 3-fold law, hold true more often). I think that's what Cram identified with the destructive/creative Trips metaphor.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Kinda going with what NotPublished said, one could argue that all the world international politics that we are dealing with now are a result of World War I (and even farther back, I know, but it's a good point for reference).... For example, if WWI didn't happen, it could be argued that there would not be a fascist strain in Europe, and therefore WWII wouldn't happen. If WWII didn't happen, maybe there wouldn't be a Cold War, since if WWI didn't happen, there might not be a Soviet Union (no Revolution), and there might not have been brief cooperation that went sour. No nukes because no Hiroshima and Nagasaki... no catalyst. No UN, no Israeli-Palastinian conflict (no Holocaust, no strong push for Jewish homeland), no break up of the British Empire, etc, etc...

We're still feeling the effects of what happened 100 years ago, let alone everything else that happened before even that. I chose WWI as a reference point for near-term modern perspective (without commenting in depth upon all of it).

Whether or not we would be better off is a matter of "what if" conjecture, but I think it's a good example of the original understanding of karma. One thing opens up a whole different can of worms.

[Lies]

There was once a young boy who went to highschool.
He was quiet, bookish lone wolf, who kept to himself mostly, and never did anything to bother or hurt anyone.
One day, a group of bullies spotted this boy, and decided it would be fun to pick on him.
They called him names, they threw things at him, they made fun of him in front of all the rest of his classmates.
The young boy though, was a buddhist, and believed that he shouldn't retaliate in any way, lest things got worse and create negative karmic energy.

Still though, the bullies were relentless, and picked on him for many years, and they kept doing it, knowing they could get away with it because the young boy never fought back.

One day, the biggest member of their group, saw the young boy at his locker getting his books ready for the next class.
He went up to him and pushed him up against his locker and started throwing him around.

Very soon, a crowd of students had seen what was happening, and were gathered around the two, none of them trying to help the boy, but instead, a chant happened.
"Fight fight fight!"

The young boy picked himself up off the ground. The young boy couldn't take it anymore. What his assailant didn't know was, this boy was also a martial artist.
He turned to his attacker, waited for him to strike once more, and he countered his punch and then sweeped his opponents leg, sending him crashing to the ground.

He was filled with anger, he was filled with rage. He had a chance to really give it to his attacker now.
But instead, he turned his back on him, and walked away, and said "You're an asshole who's just not worth it."
His attacker picked himself up, and started running towards the boy with his back turned.
"And you'll be a bigger asshole if you decide to strike me while my back is turned".
The bully stopped. He turned around. The crowd disappeared. The boy went to class.

Shortly after that, the bully left the school, and the boy was never bothered again.

Many years later, the Young boy became a young man, and was traveling around when he spotted a familiar face coming towards him.
It was the bully. And he recognized him. He ran up the young man, and said, "Do you remember me?"
"Yes, I do remember you."

The bully shook the young mans hand, and said "Listen, I want you to know, I'm really sorry about what happened all those years ago. Actually, you taught me a lot that day, and I realized that it was wrong, and I did a lot of wrong things. I never picked on anyone again from that day, and I hope that you're doing OK"

The young man smiled, and said "It's ok. You learned your lesson, and I learned mine. You taught me that all my conceptions about karma were wrong. You have to make it happen, not wait for it to happen. Have a nice day. Asshole."





 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

There was once a young boy who went to highschool.
He was quiet, bookish lone wolf, who kept to himself mostly, and never did anything to bother or hurt anyone.
One day, a group of bullies spotted this boy, and decided it would be fun to pick on him.
They called him names, they threw things at him, they made fun of him in front of all the rest of his classmates.
The young boy though, was a buddhist, and believed that he shouldn't retaliate in any way, lest things got worse and create negative karmic energy.

Still though, the bullies were relentless, and picked on him for many years, and they kept doing it, knowing they could get away with it because the young boy never fought back.

One day, the biggest member of their group, saw the young boy at his locker getting his books ready for the next class.
He went up to him and pushed him up against his locker and started throwing him around.

Very soon, a crowd of students had seen what was happening, and were gathered around the two, none of them trying to help the boy, but instead, a chant happened.
"Fight fight fight!"

The young boy picked himself up off the ground. The young boy couldn't take it anymore. What his assailant didn't know was, this boy was also a martial artist.
He turned to his attacker, waited for him to strike once more, and he countered his punch and then sweeped his opponents leg, sending him crashing to the ground.

He was filled with anger, he was filled with rage. He had a chance to really give it to his attacker now.
But instead, he turned his back on him, and walked away, and said "You're an asshole who's just not worth it."
His attacker picked himself up, and started running towards the boy with his back turned.
"And you'll be a bigger asshole if you decide to strike me while my back is turned".
The bully stopped. He turned around. The crowd disappeared. The boy went to class.

Shortly after that, the bully left the school, and the boy was never bothered again.

Many years later, the Young boy became a young man, and was traveling around when he spotted a familiar face coming towards him.
It was the bully. And he recognized him. He ran up the young man, and said, "Do you remember me?"
"Yes, I do remember you."

The bully shook the young mans hand, and said "Listen, I want you to know, I'm really sorry about what happened all those years ago. Actually, you taught me a lot that day, and I realized that it was wrong, and I did a lot of wrong things. I never picked on anyone again from that day, and I hope that you're doing OK"

The young man smiled, and said "It's ok. You learned your lesson, and I learned mine. You taught me that all my conceptions about karma were wrong. You have to make it happen, not wait for it to happen. Have a nice day. Asshole."





 

[Lies]

Thanks. True story, btw.

[Cramulus]

I know this chick who fancies herself an agent of karma

she was renting a room from this crazy woman who made her life hell for a little while. When the chick moved out, she put ground beef in the air ducts, planted pot seeds all over the yard, and executed a few other nasty revenge pranks which would take weeks or months to find.

And while I don't object to this, I don't think it's really an act of Karma Fulfillment so much as it's an act of Vengeance. Calling it Karma was just a way for her to feel better about the vile pranks she was planting, as if she was serving some just cosmic force.

[Lies]

I know this chick who fancies herself an agent of karma

she was renting a room from this crazy woman who made her life hell for a little while. When the chick moved out, she put ground beef in the air ducts, planted pot seeds all over the yard, and executed a few other nasty revenge pranks which would take weeks or months to find.

And while I don't object to this, I don't think it's really an act of Karma Fulfillment so much as it's an act of Vengeance. Calling it Karma was just a way for her to feel better about the vile pranks she was planting, as if she was serving some just cosmic force.

Yeah, vengeance is different.
There's a difference between making a situation better and making it worse, all I could see that doing is creating more negative karma in said crazy woman, only driving her craziness further.

I'm sure there are more creative ways that could have been taken to stop the negative karmic flow.

The moral to my story isn't that we should attack people that cause trouble, the point is you should attack the problem, the person is a secondary consequence of attacking the primary.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Personally I prefer gnawing on the bones of my fallen enemies way to much to buy into some abstract, hippy, stopping the wheel of karma bullshit

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Personally I prefer gnawing on the bones of my fallen enemies way to much to buy into some abstract, hippy, stopping the wheel of karma bullshit

Get into a lot of fights with the sheep then, eh?

[Lies]

Personally I prefer gnawing on the bones of my fallen enemies way to much to buy into some abstract, hippy, stopping the wheel of karma bullshit

You gotta be careful doing that, it could leave enough dental marks on it for police to positively ID you, you know.