The future doesn't want you

[The Wizard]

Then it's a good thing I haven't identified myself as a cynic.  You did that; I reject the description.

In that case, I apologize. You equated cynicism with realism, so I thought that meant that you believed in cynicism or realism as you put it.

But that's because you aren't making any effort to understand what I say, but rather to drape your own image of me around me.

Okay then. Then help me understand what you're saying.

Also, I respect you Dok, I don't think you're a doped up member of the masses. You question things, rather than mindlessly assume they'll turn out shitty. I just disagree with the idea that there is no hope.

[Doktor Howl]

Then it's a good thing I haven't identified myself as a cynic.  You did that; I reject the description.

In that case, I apologize. You equated cynicism with realism, so I thought that meant that you believed in cynicism or realism as you put it.

I never equated the two.  You did.  I accepted your term for the sake of argument.

Okay then. Then help me understand what you're saying.

Why?  It's apparent that you don't even read what I say, but react to what you had expected me to say.

Also, I respect you Dok, I don't think you're a doped up member of the masses. You question things, rather than mindlessly assume they'll turn out shitty. I just disagree with the idea that there is no hope.

Hope exists.  If it didn't, suicide would be the largest cause of death on Earth.  But "hope" as an ANSWER to anything is just another way of whistling past the graveyard.  Is that the extent of your plan (I have yet to see any details, after all, of this plan)?  Is this another "Change" platform?

[P3nT4gR4m]

Hope exists.  If it didn't, suicide would be the largest cause of death on Earth.  But "hope" as an ANSWER to anything is just another way of whistling past the graveyard.

This! Also rant is rant. I do this to entertain. Some of them are cynical flavoured, some misanthropic, others are other stuff. You want a blueprint to change the world I'd advise you quit reading my bullshit. I don't have the answers. Shit, I'm too busy laughing at the questions.

[The Wizard]

And what of cynicism?

We Doktors prefer to call it realism.

That's when realism was equated with cynicism. I brought up cynicism and  you called it realism. I went with it because you first said it.

It's apparent that you don't even read what I say, but react to what you had expected me to say.

I've read everything you've said in this thread, and thought carefully before responding to any of it. Now, if I misunderstood something or just plain got it wrong, then please explain it to me so I can fix it.

But "hope" as an ANSWER to anything is just another way of whistling past the graveyard.

I agree and that's not what I meant by hope. I meant it simply as an emotion which helps people imagine and strive for something better. As for my plan, I've been working on it only about a year, and really it's just a bunch of plans that work towards a similar goal. Right now I've got two plans, one long term and subtle, the other short term and not very subtle.

You want a blueprint to change the world I'd advise you quit reading my bullshit. I don't have the answers.

Oh, sorry Dok, if I'm thread jacking. And it's not bullshit, its good writing.

[Doktor Howl]

I agree and that's not what I meant by hope. I meant it simply as an emotion which helps people imagine and strive for something better. As for my plan, I've been working on it only about a year, and really it's just a bunch of plans that work towards a similar goal. Right now I've got two plans, one long term and subtle, the other short term and not very subtle.

Well?  I'm listening.  Convince this horrible, cynical, opiated old man that you have something worth working on, worth hoping for.

And I was not equating the two terms, but rather correcting how you described my attitude.

[The Wizard]

Okay then. I'll start with the long one. This plan will admittedly take most of my life to complete, has a high chance of failure, and requires that I have a sizable amount of money.

Human beings tend to think in the language they first learned, their native tongue. If I see a picture of the word horse, I'll probably think the word horse, rather than its French or Chinese equivalents, even if I know them. So, going off this principle, thought patterns tend to reflect the language. If certain concepts are emphasized by a language, such as there being more ways to express or describe that concept, then those concepts will become more common and focused in the minds of people raised in that language. The reverse is also true, a concept that has fewer ways to describe it, and with a negative sound and connotation, will become less dominant in the psyche.

Now, the plan is to construct a language that emphasizes concepts such as open mindedness, thinking in the long term, understanding, and similar while steering away from bigotry, short sightedness, etc. Then this language needs to be instituted among people, preferably so that it can spread as quickly as possible. With any luck, after a couple centuries, the people raised into this language will be more open minded and more likely to consider long term consequences.

I plan to acquire the  services of linguists, psycholinguists, sociolinguists, sociologists, psychologists, artists, and other experts to design this language. Once it is finished, I will attempt to get it instituted two ways. Preferably, it would function as an educational language for young children, allowing them to learn other languages easier. Less preferably, I would advertise it as a trade language, once again to do it incorporating elements of other languages. With time and a lot of luck, more and more people will speak this language, and raise their kids with this language.

I'm going to be in the planning stage for the next decade or so, learning about conlang, getting the resources together, finding and picking the experts I'll need. If this stage works out well, then I'll move it into action.

This plan is very unlikely to succeed, due to the costs and numerous uncertainties involved. And even if it did succeed I would not live to see it do so. That's why I'm working on other plans. I plan to have as many different plans as possible, so that I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket.

Now, if you want, you can critique this plan. I'll post the short term one afterwards. Ask me anything you want.

Oh and we might want to split the thread, since we're going onto a completely new topic.

[Captain Utopia]

Hope is easily crushed.  It's an internet sport you know.  So if you don't have a fully-formed bullet-proof set of plans, it might be better to keep them to a incubative audience until they are mature enough... oops you already posted, good luck

[The Wizard]

good luck

Gonna need it.

[Captain Utopia]

You're braver than I am, my devious plots for the betterment of humanity are kept close to my chest.

My immediate thought is that people have a strong irrational attachment to their language.  It may be easier to popularise the concept/process, rather than the result of the process - your brand new language.  Have you considered modifying existing languages - creating new phrases, idioms, etc - if so, why did you reject this approach?

[The Wizard]

Have you considered modifying existing languages - creating new phrases, idioms, etc - if so, why did you reject this approach?

In all honesty, that idea had not occurred to me. But I think I would reject that approach simply because I do not think it would be enough. Even if I made alterations, the symbolic and idealistic structure of the language would still be the same. Unless I found a language that worked exactly like the one I plan to construct (which bears looking into),  I might as well just remake the entire language.

Now, I did consider people's protectiveness of their native tongue. I would try and incorporate bits and pieces of  different languages, such as sentence structure, how different letters and letter combos  sound. This would help ease this hopefully, and make it easier to sell as either an intro to other languages or as a trade language.

[Captain Utopia]

Now, I did consider people's protectiveness of their native tongue. I would try and incorporate bits and pieces of  different languages, such as sentence structure, how different letters and letter combos  sound. This would help ease this hopefully, and make it easier to sell as either an intro to other languages or as a trade language.

That didn't work out so well for esperanto - "an easy to learn and politically neutral language that would serve as a universal second language to foster peace and international understanding".  Though 10,000 speakers isn't bad, and certainly not that much of a deterrent if, as you said, this is a long term plan.

[The Wizard]

That didn't work out so well for esperanto  - "an easy to learn and politically neutral language that would serve as a universal second language to foster peace and international understanding".  Though 10,000 speakers isn't bad, and certainly not that much of a deterrent if, as you said, this is a long term plan.

If this one gets past the planning stage, than I'll be working on it probably till the day I die. And that's why I'm working on other ideas, so if one doesn't work out, there's always something else.

[Elder Iptuous]

First, Pent.... good rant!

Semaj,
Esperanto was the first thing i thought of when you unveiled your plan, as well.
As it is a language designed for the same purpose you put forward, and has a small speaker base.... why don't you just work to further popularize it, and shape its vocabulary to your liking?

[The Wizard]

As it is a language designed for the same purpose you put forward, and has a small speaker base.... why don't you just work to further popularize it, and shape its vocabulary to your liking?

I might use that as a separate plan. The trade language and/or educational language is just a means of getting the conlang to people. Its a languages ability to change people's thinking that I'm going for. But working to popularize Esperanto would make a good plan to add one to the master plan. Thank Iptuous.

[Nast]

Makes me wonder if people have actually learned Ithkuil or even Ilaksh yet.