Living The Dream: What Do You Own – Really?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think we've been closer to the same side all along that you think we have.

It's quite possible.

[kingyak]

I feel like I'm arguing multiple sides of the issue here, so I'd like to suggest some terms and clarify.

Joy is what I've been meaning when I say happiness. It is a transitory positive emotion.

Sadness is what I've meant by unhappiness. It's the opposite of joy.

Happiness is an positive overall measure of contentment and is usually based in part on the amount of joy in one's life, or at least the number of opportunities the person has to experience joy and the absence of too much sadness.

Unhappiness is the opposite of happiness, and is often caused by an absence of joy or overabundance of sadness.

Self-Pity is the act of choosing to allow persistent sadness to rob you of your  joy to the exclusion of any level of happiness or to use sadness as an excuse to remain unhappy.

Depression is a medical condition that causes sadness, unhappiness, and self-pity, often even when the external stimuli that normally cause those emotions are absent.

My opinions:

• No matter how unhappy you are, you can always experience some joy in life unless you suffer from depression or are involved in an immediately struggle for survival or are in unbearable pain. If you deny this and none of the exceptions are true, you are guilty of self-pity.
• The only things we have to have to survive are food, water, and shelter (and it's possible to live without permanent shelter except for when the weather makes it necessary for survival.
• You always have choices. Sometimes they suck ("I can eat this food from the dumpster and risk food poisoning or not eat it and risk starvation"), but you always have options. Just because most people would not choose those options (because they significantly reduce expectations of comfort ("I'm going to become a hobo") or are morally or emotionally "unthinkable" ("I'm going to dump these kids off in another city so I can afford a Hummer") doesn't eliminate them as options.
• The more comfortable you are materially, the more opportunities you will have for happiness and joy and the more choices you will have available.
• If you're less comfortable materially, you'll probably have more unhappiness and sadness, fewer choices, and fewer opportunities for joy.
• Most people have more choices that could lead to betterment than they acknowledge, especially those who engage in self-pity.
• The poorer you are, the more your choices (especially choices that would allow you to improve your life) are restricted. If you're truly struggling for survival, your options for betterment are so few as to be virtually non-existent.
• Some sadness and unhappiness is unavoidable no matter who you are, and depression is a medical condition. You can't do much about those other than trying to control them as best you can given your circumstances.
• Self-pity is something you choose. By choosing it, you limit your chances of experiencing joy or overcoming unhappiness.
  

If you take the Randian "every man for himself" view, none of this matters because you got yours and anybody who doesn't isn't trying hard enough so fuck 'em.

If you believe that all people are entitled to some baseline level of happiness, you probably believe some or all people who are unhappy deserve some degree of help. The exact extent and nature of that varies from person to person. For me, it depends on if that help's being offered on a personal or societal level. On a personal level, I'll do more to help someone I know who is sad or unhappy or depressed than I will for someone who I believe is using self-pity as an excuse not to help themselves. Since my resources to help are extremely limited, I'm going to know anyone I'm helping well enough to make an educated guess as to whether their unhappiness is legitimate or self-inflicted. But since, as Nigel points out it's difficult (especially for a casual outside observer, no matter how well-trained) to untangle unhappiness, sadness, self-pity, and depression, I think society has to treat everyone as deserving of help. Trying to distinguish the truly depressed from the justifiably unhappy from the merely angsty would, in my opinion, be about as successful as Florida's brilliant plan to save money by drug-testing welfare recipients. What form that help should take is probably another debate.

Does that make any sense? (I stopped paying attention halfway through).

[kingyak]

I actually left out my point from the very beginning:

Once basic survival needs are met, you generally have at least some option of choosing to trade comfort for happiness, unless happiness for you is defined by comfort.

[Phox]

I feel like I'm arguing multiple sides of the issue here, so I'd like to suggest some terms and clarify.

Joy is what I've been meaning when I say happiness. It is a transitory positive emotion.

Sadness is what I've meant by unhappiness. It's the opposite of joy.

Happiness is an positive overall measure of contentment and is usually based in part on the amount of joy in one's life, or at least the number of opportunities the person has to experience joy and the absence of too much sadness.

Unhappiness is the opposite of happiness, and is often caused by an absence of joy or overabundance of sadness.

Self-Pity is the act of choosing to allow persistent sadness to rob you of your  joy to the exclusion of any level of happiness or to use sadness as an excuse to remain unhappy.

Depression is a medical condition that causes sadness, unhappiness, and self-pity, often even when the external stimuli that normally cause those emotions are absent.

My opinions:

• No matter how unhappy you are, you can always experience some joy in life unless you suffer from depression or are involved in an immediately struggle for survival or are in unbearable pain. If you deny this and none of the exceptions are true, you are guilty of self-pity.
• The only things we have to have to survive are food, water, and shelter (and it's possible to live without permanent shelter except for when the weather makes it necessary for survival.
• You always have choices. Sometimes they suck ("I can eat this food from the dumpster and risk food poisoning or not eat it and risk starvation"), but you always have options. Just because most people would not choose those options (because they significantly reduce expectations of comfort ("I'm going to become a hobo") or are morally or emotionally "unthinkable" ("I'm going to dump these kids off in another city so I can afford a Hummer") doesn't eliminate them as options.
• The more comfortable you are materially, the more opportunities you will have for happiness and joy and the more choices you will have available.
• If you're less comfortable materially, you'll probably have more unhappiness and sadness, fewer choices, and fewer opportunities for joy.
• Most people have more choices that could lead to betterment than they acknowledge, especially those who engage in self-pity.
• The poorer you are, the more your choices (especially choices that would allow you to improve your life) are restricted. If you're truly struggling for survival, your options for betterment are so few as to be virtually non-existent.
• Some sadness and unhappiness is unavoidable no matter who you are, and depression is a medical condition. You can't do much about those other than trying to control them as best you can given your circumstances.
• Self-pity is something you choose. By choosing it, you limit your chances of experiencing joy or overcoming unhappiness.
  

If you take the Randian "every man for himself" view, none of this matters because you got yours and anybody who doesn't isn't trying hard enough so fuck 'em.

If you believe that all people are entitled to some baseline level of happiness, you probably believe some or all people who are unhappy deserve some degree of help. The exact extent and nature of that varies from person to person. For me, it depends on if that help's being offered on a personal or societal level. On a personal level, I'll do more to help someone I know who is sad or unhappy or depressed than I will for someone who I believe is using self-pity as an excuse not to help themselves. Since my resources to help are extremely limited, I'm going to know anyone I'm helping well enough to make an educated guess as to whether their unhappiness is legitimate or self-inflicted. But since, as Nigel points out it's difficult (especially for a casual outside observer, no matter how well-trained) to untangle unhappiness, sadness, self-pity, and depression, I think society has to treat everyone as deserving of help. Trying to distinguish the truly depressed from the justifiably unhappy from the merely angsty would, in my opinion, be about as successful as Florida's brilliant plan to save money by drug-testing welfare recipients. What form that help should take is probably another debate.

Does that make any sense? (I stopped paying attention halfway through).

tl;dr (nice shot at Randians, though  )

I actually left out my point from the very beginning:

Once basic survival needs are met, you generally have at least some option of choosing to trade comfort for happiness, unless happiness for you is defined by comfort.

NOW we're getting somewhere.

[Disco Pickle]

quote redacted for tl

incidentally, who are you?

are you new here?  (qualification: I'm new here compared to most everyone else who's survived this place so...)

not that it really matters, but damn if you haven't dumped a good deal ITT, and I appreciate that.

[Phox]

quote redacted for tl

incidentally, who are you?

are you new here?  (qualification: I'm new here compared to most everyone else who's survived this place so...)

not that it really matters, but damn if you haven't dumped a good deal ITT, and I appreciate that.

Yeah, he's new. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I actually left out my point from the very beginning:

Once basic survival needs are met, you generally have at least some option of choosing to trade comfort for happiness, unless happiness for you is defined by comfort.

NOW we're getting somewhere.

Agreed. That detail is crucial.

One thing to keep in mind is that ALL emotions are chemical states. We are just a bunch of chemicals, after all.

I'll also point out that one major hallmark of clinical depression is apathy and a lack of zest for life... positive or negative. It not only doesn't necessarily include sadness or self-pity, but it is a suppression of all forms of emotion. Despair and anguish are not depression. Your biggest danger sign is not when someone is agonized and weeping, but when they simply can't bring themselves to care at all.

[Phox]

I actually left out my point from the very beginning:

Once basic survival needs are met, you generally have at least some option of choosing to trade comfort for happiness, unless happiness for you is defined by comfort.

NOW we're getting somewhere.

Agreed. That detail is crucial.

One thing to keep in mind is that ALL emotions are chemical states. We are just a bunch of chemicals, after all.

I'll also point out that one major hallmark of clinical depression is apathy and a lack of zest for life... positive or negative. It not only doesn't necessarily include sadness or self-pity, but it is a suppression of all forms of emotion. Despair and anguish are not depression. Your biggest danger sign is not when someone is agonized and weeping, but when they simply can't bring themselves to care at all.

Yes, that is absolutely crucial. I've had my more than my share of bouts with depression, and it's almost a numb feeling at times. It's as if nothing matters. It's not pleasant.

[kingyak]

quote redacted for tl

incidentally, who are you?

are you new here?  (qualification: I'm new here compared to most everyone else who's survived this place so...)

not that it really matters, but damn if you haven't dumped a good deal ITT, and I appreciate that.

My name's Steve. I'm kind of a refugee from the Discordian Society FB page. Cramulus lured me over a week or two a ago with the suggestion that there might be actual Mindfucks (rather than just "wacky Discord") afoot here. So far I've mostly posted in the RPG forum, but I put an intro up in the place where it looked like intros should go if you're dying to know more. I've been keeping up with threads kind of randomly, but on most of the ones where I've had something to say, someone else has already said it better before I came along.

And by the way, I think your icon and the Disco Cat should have a dance-off.

[Disco Pickle]

quote redacted for tl

incidentally, who are you?

are you new here?  (qualification: I'm new here compared to most everyone else who's survived this place so...)

not that it really matters, but damn if you haven't dumped a good deal ITT, and I appreciate that.

My name's Steve. I'm kind of a refugee from the Discordian Society FB page. Cramulus lured me over a week or two a ago with the suggestion that there might be actual Mindfucks (rather than just "wacky Discord") afoot here. So far I've mostly posted in the RPG forum, but I put an intro up in the place where it looked like intros should go if you're dying to know more. I've been keeping up with threads kind of randomly, but on most of the ones where I've had something to say, someone else has already said it better before I came along.

And by the way, I think your icon and the Disco Cat should have a dance-off.

fuck YEAH!

problem is, as the controller of my avatar, I have to warn whoever is controlling disco cat that as a german white boy, I count on 1 and 3.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hey Steve, are you one of my new Discordian Facebook friends? I have the damndest time connecting real names to PD handles.

[kingyak]

Hey Steve, are you one of my new Discordian Facebook friends? I have the damndest time connecting real names to PD handles.

I don't think so, but I get a lot of random friend requests from various places so I can't be 100% sure. My last name's Johnson and my current profile pic is "The Golden Girls and Will Wheaton playing D&D Framed In Bacon," if that sounds familiar.

[kingyak]

fuck YEAH!

problem is, as the controller of my avatar, I have to warn whoever is controlling disco cat that as a german white boy, I count on 1 and 3.

Nobody controls Disco Cat.

Or puts Disco Cat in the corner.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Hey Steve, are you one of my new Discordian Facebook friends? I have the damndest time connecting real names to PD handles.

I don't think so, but I get a lot of random friend requests from various places so I can't be 100% sure. My last name's Johnson and my current profile pic is "The Golden Girls and Will Wheaton playing D&D Framed In Bacon," if that sounds familiar.

No, apparently not, but while looking I did find another Steve Johnson with whom I apparently have 76 friends in common, yet have no idea who he is. 

[kingyak]

Here's the link if anyone wants to add me but doesn't want to search through the 18 trillion other people with the same name:

http://www.facebook.com/kingyak

(Warning: By sending me a friend request you potentially subject yourself to shameless self promotion, comic book geekery, political propaganda, and goofy shit).