Living The Dream: What Do You Own – Really?

[Scribbly]

Wow, this thread really exploded.

I would like to say - all communication happens in a context.

As you're fond of pointing out, Nigel, this is a 'white' board. The people who post here have the luxury of time to piss away on the internet in the comfort of places set up to allow them to do so.

Therefore, my comments on 'choice' were aimed at an audience with that basic level of survival pretty well met. If I'm wrong, and we have a surfeit of people living on or below the poverty line then I'll go back and start qualifying all those statements.

Otherwise, I think the notion of choice and being forced to make decisions is wildly overblown amongst the majority of individuals. It very rarely becomes anything so dramatic as 'I must do X or I will starve', but it is very often used as a trap to stop people start taking decisions that require effort in order to better their lot. That can mean going back to school, or just looking for another job to replace the one they complain about all the time.

I still maintain that believing you have no way to make your life better is ultimately one of the most insidious behaviours that modern society can instil in a person. I think that applies right across the cross-section of society. It is an attitude rather than a situation, and it is a self-defeating one which I despise.

[kingyak]

Do you think that people who are depressed from ongoing constant stress related to survival are making a choice to be unhappy?

Depends on what you mean by depressed. If you're referring to clinical depression, no. I didn't feel the need to specify "You can always be happy unless you have a psychological condition that prevents you from being happy" for the same reason I wouldn't specify "If you drop something it will always fall to the ground, unless you're in space."

If you're talking about self-pity, then yes.

I think Wilson's "winner scripts" and "loser scripts" apply here.* If you have a "winner script," you can always find some kind of happiness barring exceptional or extreme circumstances. If you have a "loser script," you'll always be unhappy no matter how fortunate you are.

*And I can't believe I'm saying that, because winner/loser scripts are one of R.A.W.'s ideas that I've never been able to fully buy into, since the concept completely ignores economic reality and in some cases (as the depression example illustrates) physical reality.

[Disco Pickle]

I somehow missed that bit of RAW, but picked a lot of it up through reading Eric Berne's books.  I makes perfect sense now that one influenced the other.

I think I have before, but let me again recommend Scripts People Live and Games People Play.  They're much easier to get through than Transactional Analysis, which was written for psych Dr.s.  It's a little uncanny how you'll start seeing people do those things in your day to day.

[kingyak]

Wow, this thread really exploded.

I would like to say - all communication happens in a context.

As you're fond of pointing out, Nigel, this is a 'white' board. The people who post here have the luxury of time to piss away on the internet in the comfort of places set up to allow them to do so.

Therefore, my comments on 'choice' were aimed at an audience with that basic level of survival pretty well met. If I'm wrong, and we have a surfeit of people living on or below the poverty line then I'll go back and start qualifying all those statements.

Otherwise, I think the notion of choice and being forced to make decisions is wildly overblown amongst the majority of individuals. It very rarely becomes anything so dramatic as 'I must do X or I will starve', but it is very often used as a trap to stop people start taking decisions that require effort in order to better their lot. That can mean going back to school, or just looking for another job to replace the one they complain about all the time.

I still maintain that believing you have no way to make your life better is ultimately one of the most insidious behaviours that modern society can instil in a person. I think that applies right across the cross-section of society. It is an attitude rather than a situation, and it is a self-defeating one which I despise.

It cuts both ways. You're absolutely right that most people in "first world countries" (and certainly most people who post on internet forums) do have more choices than they acknowledge, but since making those choices would mean rethinking their comfort levels regarding quality of life and security, most people don't consider them real choices.

On the other hand, assuming that there's always an option to improve your life ignores the realities of those who actually do live in poverty. There's a certain point where the need to survive really does physically and mentally prevent you from improving your life. If you're working 2 (or more) jobs to provide food and shelter for your children, you're going to have trouble finding the time to look for a better job, much less train or go to school for a better one, or even use skills you have to supplement your income.

[kingyak]

I somehow missed that bit of RAW, but picked a lot of it up through reading Eric Berne's books.  I makes perfect sense now that one influenced the other.

I think I have before, but let me again recommend Scripts People Live and Games People Play.  They're much easier to get through than Transactional Analysis, which was written for psych Dr.s.  It's a little uncanny how you'll start seeing people do those things in your day to day.

He hits it in a few different books--I think Prometheus Rising and the Cosmic Trigger series, but it's been a while and he wrote a lot of books, so don't take that as gospel.

[Disco Pickle]

I somehow missed that bit of RAW, but picked a lot of it up through reading Eric Berne's books.  I makes perfect sense now that one influenced the other.

I think I have before, but let me again recommend Scripts People Live and Games People Play.  They're much easier to get through than Transactional Analysis, which was written for psych Dr.s.  It's a little uncanny how you'll start seeing people do those things in your day to day.

He hits it in a few different books--I think Prometheus Rising and the Cosmic Trigger series, but it's been a while and he wrote a lot of books, so don't take that as gospel.

I have neglected to read Cosmic Trigger.  No reason, just haven't thought to get it.  Did read Prometheus and the first thing it reminded me of was Jung and Berne. 

[Phox]

There was no attempt to be funny. As far as anything interesting, I don't know. Which of my comments was the one that irritated you?

PD was attempting to be funny. You killed teh funny. Hence the question. Prior to this, I had not seen anything particularly interesting come off your keyboard. That is, in fact, no longer the case, but my statement stands.  

IN REGARD TO THE REST OF THE THREAD: Good goddamn, I do believe Nigel is on the right track here. I remember when I was a kid and we ate government cheese sandwiches everyday. I'm thinking that in about 9 months, I'll be eating dirt under the overpass everyday. (Okay, that's exaggerating a bit, but the point remains).  While the people here may be able to indulge in the kind of freedom of choice that you are getting on about, it is not universally true, and there is no reason to state it as if it is.

Wow, this thread really exploded.

I would like to say - all communication happens in a context.

As you're fond of pointing out, Nigel, this is a 'white' board. The people who post here have the luxury of time to piss away on the internet in the comfort of places set up to allow them to do so.

Therefore, my comments on 'choice' were aimed at an audience with that basic level of survival pretty well met. If I'm wrong, and we have a surfeit of people living on or below the poverty line then I'll go back and start qualifying all those statements.

Otherwise, I think the notion of choice and being forced to make decisions is wildly overblown amongst the majority of individuals. It very rarely becomes anything so dramatic as 'I must do X or I will starve', but it is very often used as a trap to stop people start taking decisions that require effort in order to better their lot. That can mean going back to school, or just looking for another job to replace the one they complain about all the time.

I still maintain that believing you have no way to make your life better is ultimately one of the most insidious behaviours that modern society can instil in a person. I think that applies right across the cross-section of society. It is an attitude rather than a situation, and it is a self-defeating one which I despise.

It cuts both ways. You're absolutely right that most people in "first world countries" (and certainly most people who post on internet forums) do have more choices than they acknowledge, but since making those choices would mean rethinking their comfort levels regarding quality of life and security, most people don't consider them real choices.

On the other hand, assuming that there's always an option to improve your life ignores the realities of those who actually do live in poverty. There's a certain point where the need to survive really does physically and mentally prevent you from improving your life. If you're working 2 (or more) jobs to provide food and shelter for your children, you're going to have trouble finding the time to look for a better job, much less train or go to school for a better one, or even use skills you have to supplement your income.

While it's true, I'm sitting here doing little productive, not worrying about where my next meal will come from, I am also aware of the fact that when I graduate, that is a very real concern I might have, and I've been there before. So, this sort of discussion is all well in good, but when I have a concrete timeline of when I might dip below "comfortable" living, well... that's a bit of a depressing thought, innit?

[kingyak]

I will always maintain that government cheese and government butter are the two perks of being poor.

[Phox]

I will always maintain that government cheese and government butter are the two perks of being poor.

'Cept they don't give 'em out in IL anymore.

[kingyak]

While it's true, I'm sitting here doing little productive, not worrying about where my next meal will come from, I am also aware of the fact that when I graduate, that is a very real concern I might have, and I've been there before. So, this sort of discussion is all well in good, but when I have a concrete timeline of when I might dip below "comfortable" living, well... that's a bit of a depressing thought, innit?

Tell me about it. I'm more financially stable than I've ever been in my life, but between crappy pay (for the job I do, even if it's a big step up from most jobs I've had), student loans and a 50 mile drive every day in a truck that gets 15 miles/gallon on a good day (and that I don't have the cash or credit (again thanks to student loans) to replace, I'm only doing slightly better long-term than in the days when whether I ate or not depended on how much money I made that night (or in some case, whether one of the waitresses who would trade their shift meal for a ride home was working at the Awful Waffle). So far, there have been one and a half cases where economic realities have prevented me from bettering my situation:

The first was a job that was perfect for me and I was qualified for, but it was in D.C., so I couldn't afford the trip for an interview, much less the cost of relocation if I got the job.

The other is teaching (which I'm counting as half because I'm still trying to figure out if there are options); right now there are a lot of teaching jobs available in the area, and since it's rural I could probably get my student loans reduced or forgiven after a few years of teaching (which is probably the only way I'll ever get rid of them and have a chance to own anything beyond an endless series of beater cars--at my current payment, if I never miss a payment, they'll be paid off when I'm something like 128). But even if I could schedule classes to go to school while keeping my full-time job, I'd still have to teach for free for a minimum of 4 months. Scraping the money together to live off of that time would probably take a year if I cut out all discretionary expenses (and that's without tuition costs calculated in), so by the time I've got a teaching certificate the local schools will have consolidated and there'll be a surplus of experienced teachers looking for jobs.

So I keep my crappy job and hope that either one of the few better jobs in the area will open up, one of my games will explode and make me a bunch of money, or that one of the local schools will get desperate enough to open up the current unfilled positions to someone without a certificate under the "emergency teacher" option.

If anybody knows the secret of converting Horatio Alger stories from Randian myth to reality, please let me know.

Dammit, now I'm depressed.

[The Rev]

Hey, stop knocking my extremely priviledged worldview!



Anyway, it's sounding like The Rev has the notion that the perfect state of being is a hedonistic, "do as you please" series of behaviors 100% of the time.  He neglects to notice that this state of being has never existed, at any point in time.  

Life is hard work, even for us rich white men.  

And, as an aside, I should point out that the most fun and joy I have is entirely free of monetary cost.  I have things, and they make me comfortable, but they don't make me happy.

No. No. No.

The point is that what many of the things we call choices are not choices, but driven by necessity. Within those necessities lie certain choices, but the choices are still being driven by some external force.

Hold the phone.

Your entire thesis is, "I can't do what I want, because reality is in the way"?



Chapter 5


Life is unfair, wear a helmet.
The wise spag wears a helmet, but also drops hammers.

Anything could be a punchline.
Even the wise spag gets punched.

Chaos never ends!  
Even its vacuum has a presence.
To struggle against it
is like pissing in the wind.







Bolded for emphasis.

Either I'm not explaining myself to your satisfaction or you are choosing to not understand what I am saying.

[Disco Pickle]

169% chance of the former, just based on experience.

[The Rev]

I think where we're butting heads here is that I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that you have the poverty is a choice and you have the choice to not be poor.

I didn't say that because what the fuck does that say?

Let's try:
I think where we're butting heads here is that I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that poverty is a choice and you have the choice to not be poor.

Ah, OK. Because that, along with whether you can choose to be happy when impoverished, is a significant element of the conversation.

There are so many aspects to this part of the conversation. Is a mother who is unhappy because a child of hers needs (not wants) something that cannot be provided deliberately being unhappy? No, I don't think so. Some ITT are saying there is a choice to be happy regardless. I say that is a very large brushstroke that is fundamentally unfair.

A choice between living in a home in a bad neighborhood and living under a bridge is not a choice at it's core is it?

[The Rev]

There was no attempt to be funny. As far as anything interesting, I don't know. Which of my comments was the one that irritated you?

PD was attempting to be funny. You killed teh funny. Hence the question. Prior to this, I had not seen anything particularly interesting come off your keyboard. That is, in fact, no longer the case, but my statement stands.  

IN REGARD TO THE REST OF THE THREAD: Good goddamn, I do believe Nigel is on the right track here. I remember when I was a kid and we ate government cheese sandwiches everyday. I'm thinking that in about 9 months, I'll be eating dirt under the overpass everyday. (Okay, that's exaggerating a bit, but the point remains).  While the people here may be able to indulge in the kind of freedom of choice that you are getting on about, it is not universally true, and there is no reason to state it as if it is.

Wow, this thread really exploded.

I would like to say - all communication happens in a context.

As you're fond of pointing out, Nigel, this is a 'white' board. The people who post here have the luxury of time to piss away on the internet in the comfort of places set up to allow them to do so.

Therefore, my comments on 'choice' were aimed at an audience with that basic level of survival pretty well met. If I'm wrong, and we have a surfeit of people living on or below the poverty line then I'll go back and start qualifying all those statements.

Otherwise, I think the notion of choice and being forced to make decisions is wildly overblown amongst the majority of individuals. It very rarely becomes anything so dramatic as 'I must do X or I will starve', but it is very often used as a trap to stop people start taking decisions that require effort in order to better their lot. That can mean going back to school, or just looking for another job to replace the one they complain about all the time.

I still maintain that believing you have no way to make your life better is ultimately one of the most insidious behaviours that modern society can instil in a person. I think that applies right across the cross-section of society. It is an attitude rather than a situation, and it is a self-defeating one which I despise.

It cuts both ways. You're absolutely right that most people in "first world countries" (and certainly most people who post on internet forums) do have more choices than they acknowledge, but since making those choices would mean rethinking their comfort levels regarding quality of life and security, most people don't consider them real choices.

On the other hand, assuming that there's always an option to improve your life ignores the realities of those who actually do live in poverty. There's a certain point where the need to survive really does physically and mentally prevent you from improving your life. If you're working 2 (or more) jobs to provide food and shelter for your children, you're going to have trouble finding the time to look for a better job, much less train or go to school for a better one, or even use skills you have to supplement your income.

While it's true, I'm sitting here doing little productive, not worrying about where my next meal will come from, I am also aware of the fact that when I graduate, that is a very real concern I might have, and I've been there before. So, this sort of discussion is all well in good, but when I have a concrete timeline of when I might dip below "comfortable" living, well... that's a bit of a depressing thought, innit?

I see, so choosing to have a conversation that does not involve being funny is wrong in your opinion.

[Phox]

I see, so choosing to have a conversation that does not involve being funny is wrong in your opinion.

Yeah, that's totally what I said. Make me laugh or GTFO.