Living The Dream: What Do You Own – Really?

[Jenne]

My husband has a saying: "This must be a problem of the well-fed."

First world problems!

Yes...I think that's what he means by that. 

[kingyak]

I think where we're butting heads here is that I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that you have the poverty is a choice and you have the choice to not be poor.

I didn't say that because what the fuck does that say?

Let's try:
I think where we're butting heads here is that I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that poverty is a choice and you have the choice to not be poor.

[Salty]

I once read that happiness = the satisfaction of your desires. And boy did I take that shit to heart.
You can get by pretty damned well as a single person with a crap job, especially if you force yourself out of stupid food and entertainment habits. But what does that have to do with happiness? I think that I was an idiot when I read that.

See, you can cut out all the stuff you don't NEED in your life, get by with a smile on your face with the bare minimum of food, shelter, personal belongings. I think in this way you can learn how to be happy with what you have around you, which is a valuable skill no matter how much you have. But the thing is, for most of us, that's a cute little OPTION. Some of us don't get to make that choice.

I guess I could say that I found such thinking comforting since I didn't have much at the time. But, meh. I can't but think that no matter how little I have at any given moment there are millions who would enjoy a fraction of what I have available. So somewhere in there is a flaw.

As for ownership, I was always under the impression you owned what cannot be taken away from you, not without some kind of rightful legal intervention. Anything else seems like wishful thinking.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

As I said before, 1. Once kids happen, you have 'em. Are you celibate? Because if you're not celibate, then you are, by your own logic, making the choice to have children. Furthermore, rape removes that choice from many women. Are you going to argue that "there are programs for that"?  

Even once you have kids, you do have the option of giving them up (not an easy choice in most cases, but a choice). More celibate than I want to be, but not entirely, and I accept that it could lead to children. As for rape, my argument is "I wish there were programs for that."

and 2. NOBODY except for you has introduced the idea that poverty removes choice entirely. It, as I said before and you have chosen to disregard, severely restricts choice.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by:

But that assessment only works if you have a certain amount of leeway to begin with.

If so, I apologize.

I do not have a victim mentality, I can assure you of that. But I have been impoverished, I have physical marks of childhood malnourishment, I have lived in abominable conditions, and I am keenly aware of the advantages that I have which resulted in coming out of poverty. Many of which advantages others are not privy to.

You seem to have a fairly common "If I did it, so can anyone" outlook, which is erroneous thinking because it assumes that anyone who is impoverished has the same set of opportunities and circumstances. Try a mental flexibility exercise; think to yourself "what if I hadn't been able..." about certain of the options you had, like using a kerosene heater. Imagine some of the reasons that wouldn't have been possible in other circumstances.

I think where we're butting heads here is that I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that you have the poverty is a choice and you have the choice to not be poor. I wouldn't suggest that, because it's not true. I was merely saying that you always have a choice of how to deal with a shitty situation. It's usually not a good choice, and in most cases the consequences are worse than the consequences of staying in your current situation, but there is a choice.

You did misunderstand. The "assessment" of one's life and habits in order to free up leisure time is what I was talking about. It presupposes the existence of luxury amenities which can be disposed of in order to reduce stress and create leisure. You are talking about making survival choices, while I was addressing the assumption that everyone has non-survival, luxury options large enough to make a significant difference in quality of life.

So, by not being celibate, you are essentially choosing to have children. Do you pass judgement on those who have sex but cannot afford to have children?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think where we're butting heads here is that I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that you have the poverty is a choice and you have the choice to not be poor.

I didn't say that because what the fuck does that say?

Let's try:
I think where we're butting heads here is that I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that poverty is a choice and you have the choice to not be poor.

Ah, OK. Because that, along with whether you can choose to be happy when impoverished, is a significant element of the conversation.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I once read that happiness = the satisfaction of your desires. And boy did I take that shit to heart.
You can get by pretty damned well as a single person with a crap job, especially if you force yourself out of stupid food and entertainment habits. But what does that have to do with happiness? I think that I was an idiot when I read that.

See, you can cut out all the stuff you don't NEED in your life, get by with a smile on your face with the bare minimum of food, shelter, personal belongings. I think in this way you can learn how to be happy with what you have around you, which is a valuable skill no matter how much you have. But the thing is, for most of us, that's a cute little OPTION. Some of us don't get to make that choice.

I guess I could say that I found such thinking comforting since I didn't have much at the time. But, meh. I can't but think that no matter how little I have at any given moment there are millions who would enjoy a fraction of what I have available. So somewhere in there is a flaw.

As for ownership, I was always under the impression you owned what cannot be taken away from you, not without some kind of rightful legal intervention. Anything else seems like wishful thinking.

I'm with ya here.

[kingyak]

You did misunderstand. The "assessment" of one's life and habits in order to free up leisure time is what I was talking about. It presupposes the existence of luxury amenities which can be disposed of in order to reduce stress and create leisure. You are talking about making survival choices, while I was addressing the assumption that everyone has non-survival, luxury options large enough to make a significant difference in quality of life.

Yeah, I guess that my point is that unless you're homeless, you always have the option "dropping out" if you're wiling to trade the security that most people believe is essential for the freedom of not having to work shitty jobs. Blame it on hobomancers.

So, by not being celibate, you are essentially choosing to have children. Do you pass judgement on those who have sex but cannot afford to have children?

I'm choosing to accept the responsibility of children (or at least paying for an abortion) if I get someone pregnant. And no, I don't pass judgement on people who have sex but can't afford kids. That's why I mentioned that if I ruled the world birth control and abortions would be free for anyone who wanted them.

[kingyak]

But the thing is, for most of us, that's a cute little OPTION. Some of us don't get to make that choice.

I'm with you except for this bit. By choosing not to take the option, you are making a choice. Just because an option is one that most people wouldn't accept doesn't make it any less of an option.

[kingyak]

Ah, OK. Because that, along with whether you can choose to be happy when impoverished, is a significant element of the conversation.

I think you can always choose to be happy no matter how bad your situation. It's just a lot harder the worse your situation gets.

[kingyak]

And I see that thanks to this discussion I can finally see the Mindfuck thread, which was the main reason I signed up over here in the first place. So I just got happiness and all it cost me was my company's time and internet connection (one of the best tips I've found to increase happiness when you work a job you hate is to assess how much work you can blow off and still keep your job as early in the relationship as possible).

[Disco Pickle]

Ah, OK. Because that, along with whether you can choose to be happy when impoverished, is a significant element of the conversation.

I think you can always choose to be happy no matter how bad your situation. It's just a lot harder the worse your situation gets.

So, you have entire control over how you react and feel about any given situation, and how long you choose to feel that way?

If that's what you're getting at, ok, yeah.  I'm with you.  That entire mindset is why I haven't been (generally speaking) unhappy at all since I started really REALLY thinking that way.  I've been sad, but that's not the same as being unhappy.  And any feelings of being unhappy are usually quickly followed by detailed plans on how to change whatever it is that's making me unhappy.

That was possibly one of the hardest parts of getting out of my early 20's, but it works wonders now.

[kingyak]

So, you have entire control over how you react and feel about any given situation, and how long you choose to feel that way?

If that's what you're getting at, ok, yeah.  I'm with you.  That entire mindset is why I haven't been (generally speaking) unhappy at all since I started really REALLY thinking that way.  I've been sad, but that's not the same as being unhappy.  And any feelings of being unhappy are usually quickly followed by detailed plans on how to change whatever it is that's making me unhappy.

That was possibly one of the hardest parts of getting out of my early 20's, but it works wonders now.

Not complete control, but more control than most people acknowledge they have. A vast majority of most people's unhappiness comes in the form of stress about things that are ultimately meaningless. Knowing that doesn't get rid of the emotional reactions that cause unhappiness, but it makes it a lot easier to keep them from ruining your day.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ah, OK. Because that, along with whether you can choose to be happy when impoverished, is a significant element of the conversation.

I think you can always choose to be happy no matter how bad your situation. It's just a lot harder the worse your situation gets.

I think you need to read some books on psychology and the biology of stress. Or, possibly, explain your definition of happiness, because I think it differs from mine. Which is, admittedly, science-based, and fuck science.

[kingyak]

Ah, OK. Because that, along with whether you can choose to be happy when impoverished, is a significant element of the conversation.

I think you can always choose to be happy no matter how bad your situation. It's just a lot harder the worse your situation gets.

I think you need to read some books on psychology and the biology of stress. Or, possibly, explain your definition of happiness, because I think it differs from mine. Which is, admittedly, science-based, and fuck science.

Might be more useful to define happiness.

If you mean "a permanent, perfect state of contentment where everybody sings showtunes and shit smells like daisies" then no, not going to happen no matter what your station in life is.

If you mean "forgetting how much life sucks for a while and enjoying yourself, if only for a little while," then yes.

And again, it's very important to differentiate between survival stress and what most people consider stress. If you're in the process of starving to death, dying from exposure, or bleeding constantly from the eyes, happiness is probably unattainable (at least until the hallucinations set in). 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ah, OK. Because that, along with whether you can choose to be happy when impoverished, is a significant element of the conversation.

I think you can always choose to be happy no matter how bad your situation. It's just a lot harder the worse your situation gets.

I think you need to read some books on psychology and the biology of stress. Or, possibly, explain your definition of happiness, because I think it differs from mine. Which is, admittedly, science-based, and fuck science.

Might be more useful to define happiness.

If you mean "a permanent, perfect state of contentment where everybody sings showtunes and shit smells like daisies" then no, not going to happen no matter what your station in life is.

If you mean "forgetting how much life sucks for a while and enjoying yourself, if only for a little while," then yes.

And again, it's very important to differentiate between survival stress and what most people consider stress. If you're in the process of starving to death, dying from exposure, or bleeding constantly from the eyes, happiness is probably unattainable (at least until the hallucinations set in). 

Do you think that people who are depressed from ongoing constant stress related to survival are making a choice to be unhappy?