Psychedelics question

[Payne]

I disagree, and here's why.

Ok, so I really want to try shrooms, LSD and MDMA(all of them mainly out of curiousity),

Curiosity is not really exploration, though exploration is curiosity in a sense.

This strikes me more as "Other people talk about, it sounds kinda funky. I wonder what it's like". Not a kind of "I wonder what it'll unlock in me that I never knew before".

but I have a problem. My dad has a mild case of schizophrenia, my aunt is a total schizophrenic and his mother also had schizophrenia. My cousins(aunt's children) are ok, and they've done drugs. I've smoked really potent pot, and in Amsterdam I ate space-cake and it was great - no side effects. What are the risks of different drugs to trigger schizophrenia for me?

And this, what the post is actually about, is ALL about health and safety. There isn't even the question of reward in it, just risk.


We don't even need to present a balanced argument, just the risks. Dalekk is big enough and ugly enough to balance the rewards versus the risks himself.

In this context, I reckon questions of risk only should be addressed in this thread. We have PLENTY of other threads where people can thrash out the political/ criminal/ social/ moral implications, so if you could leave those discussions there, that'd be swell.

[Triple Zero]

That's why many smokers (myself included) quit for a year or more, then have one smoke, and the next day they're buying a pack.

That's me. 

The only good thing that for me came from smoking is that I now know firsthand what an addiction is. I'm not entirely sure if it was worth the lesson.

[Triple Zero]

I've quit doing everything I wanted to quit doing so I don't think I'll get addicted from experimenting.

When, long ago, I found myself in Re-hab, most of the other Patrons, were in for Heroin addiction. We worked in groups of about 12 to 15, with 3 group sessions a day, every day for seven weeks. The one thing that all of the heroin addicts had in common, bar none, is the sentiment you state above you. "I'll be fine, I hardly use it at all, anyway and I don't have a particularly addictive nature". This is not for any drug in particular, when it's first said, but applys to anything. Every single Heroin Addict has used this tired, but eminently relevant lie, to themselves. If this were true, then why don't you ever see anyone who is just an occaisional Heroin user?  What makes each and every one of them, in spite of the evidence all around them, in spite of everything that they think they know, what is it that makes them all think that they are the special and different one, that they are that rare and lucky man, who can keep a healthy grip on the Beast? As if it was a housetrained dog. It's not a dog. It's a fucking Dragon.

The fucking Dragon. You don't ride it, you chase it. You chase it and chase it, and by the time you think you've caught it, you realise that it's been the other way round. But by then, it's too late. It no longer matters. Nothing matters. Nothing, that is, except your new lover. The only one who knows how to love you properly. How to love you wholly. The one who is always there for you, to make the world go away when it gets too much. It covers you both in a bubble of protective, impenetrable love.
Nothing will ever get in to hurt you, not here. Not ever. This is your special place. Where you commune with your God. And She tells you no lies, She loves you.This mighty Dragon Goddess Lover of yours. She loves you. You.
This, you know. Never harsh, never judgemental. Never argumentative. All She wants is you. All of you. Every little bit of you. More and more each day. And you want Her. You NEED Her. Every moment you spend apart, becomes unbearable. She fills your being with need, with want, with Love. She is your everything. Your Perfect Day. Your Brown Sugar, Golden Brown, you realise she has had so many other Lovers before you. So very many. Yet she still has everything to give to you. Her Love. Your need to have her near to you for always, over rides everything. Food, Family, Friends, a home, other people. Anything else. All you need is Her. She fulfills you. Consumes you. Nurtures you with her pure Loving touch.

She heals all the pain and hurt the World throws at you. Never abandons you. Never threatens to leave you. But she is a Jealous Lover. And the pain she feels if you try to walk away from her, becomes your pain too.
Her abscence is a bottomless pit of pain, anguish, grief, and misery. Made all the worse, because you know it could all be washed away, and forgiven, if you just had a tiny, tiny last hit of Her. One touch of her warm fingers in your brain, will make all the pain just go away. Again.

She is needy, she is greedy, she has such huge abandonement issues, rejection is only ever partial with Her. She knows you won't stay away for long. In fact She's waiting for you now, with open arms. Forgiving, full of all that Love. She will wait forever for you. She loves you. You know you still love her too. Even after all this time. Nearly 30 years since you saw her last. But you still feel her within you. Still love her. It's never too late with Her.

This kind of thing is why you really shouldn't get into Heroin. If you are Her type, then all other Drugs will eventually lead you to Her. There is no question about this. She will have you. All you have to do, to show willing is Chase that Dragon a couple of times. What harm can it do? It's just a ride. 

Jesus.

I enjoyed your "Fear" post, but this ... wow. Made me have to swallow something away a couple of times.

Also, when I saw this thread grew to 7+ pages, I thought "ahh not another one..", but I'm glad we can actually have a really cool, interesting and horrifying discussion about drugs as well, instead of just arguing back and forth.

Ok, so I really want to try shrooms, LSD and MDMA(all of them mainly out of curiousity),

Curiosity is not really exploration, though exploration is curiosity in a sense.

This strikes me more as "Other people talk about, it sounds kinda funky. I wonder what it's like". Not a kind of "I wonder what it'll unlock in me that I never knew before".

I dunno, DALEKK should say what he meant, if it's important to anyone. Cause when I wanted to do shrooms for the first time, I wanted the experience for exploration+curiosity as well, and I might have worded it exactly the same if I'd have had those questions.

OTOH, I was also very curious about the spirituality aspect of it, not because it sounded kinda funky, but because it would actually be something new, like what I thought drugs would be like before I'd ever had any, a change of reality perception. Because, IMO, in some sense, being stoned is just another kind of being drunk. And shrooms would be different. So I was very, very curious.

Anyway, never mind my own reasons and all that. I didn't post on this before in this thread, because after thinking it over for a while, the best thing I could say was: I am not a doctor (not one with any sort of relevant medical grade, anyway), so I can't give any advice on whether you could/should do shrooms or not. However, what I said earlier in the thread, if you continue to do marijuana, be very very careful because that shit can trigger psychosis in those who may have those tendencies. I've actually seen it happen, even though the kid knew he shouldn't do pot ever (again), he did anyway. Ah cause that's another thing, one that really complicates the pot-schizophrenia correlation, is that schizophrenics tend to smoke really a lot of pot. I heard this from a friend who works as an apprentice psychiatrist in a mental institution. He wasn't exactly sure why, but they do, nearly all of them.

[BabylonHoruv]

I think Pixie should post more.  I've seen her posting before about her own struggle with drug induced mental problems and, although I know they are mostly pot induced, I think they're probably the biggest "no don't do this!" I have seen from anyone on the boards yet.  Especcially if the interest is for fun as opposed to spiritual or exploratory reasons.  Fun, even a lot of fun, is not worth a risk of schizophrenia.

[BadBeast]

On the question of Psychedlics/Schizophrenia, Psychiatrists are unable to distinguish between a  Schizophrenic episode, and a mushroom or acid trip. Just saying.

[BabylonHoruv]

On the question of Psychedlics/Schizophrenia, Psychiatrists are unable to distinguish between a  Schizophrenic episode, and a mushroom or acid trip. Just saying.

One really important difference is that someone undergoing a schizophrenic episode did not imbibe mushrooms or acid shortly before the episode.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

On the question of Psychedlics/Schizophrenia, Psychiatrists are unable to distinguish between a  Schizophrenic episode, and a mushroom or acid trip. Just saying.

Ive yet to drop acid and suddenly hear God talking to me and telling me the government is stealing my thoughts.
Mabye Im just not getting ahold of the good stuff. 

[Chairman Risus]

On the question of Psychedlics/Schizophrenia, Psychiatrists are unable to distinguish between a  Schizophrenic episode, and a mushroom or acid trip. Just saying.

[Eartha-ly Delights]

I've quit doing everything I wanted to quit doing so I don't think I'll get addicted from experimenting.

When, long ago, I found myself in Re-hab, most of the other Patrons, were in for Heroin addiction. We worked in groups of about 12 to 15, with 3 group sessions a day, every day for seven weeks. The one thing that all of the heroin addicts had in common, bar none, is the sentiment you state above you. "I'll be fine, I hardly use it at all, anyway and I don't have a particularly addictive nature". This is not for any drug in particular, when it's first said, but applys to anything. Every single Heroin Addict has used this tired, but eminently relevant lie, to themselves. If this were true, then why don't you ever see anyone who is just an occaisional Heroin user?  What makes each and every one of them, in spite of the evidence all around them, in spite of everything that they think they know, what is it that makes them all think that they are the special and different one, that they are that rare and lucky man, who can keep a healthy grip on the Beast? As if it was a housetrained dog. It's not a dog. It's a fucking Dragon.

The fucking Dragon. You don't ride it, you chase it. You chase it and chase it, and by the time you think you've caught it, you realise that it's been the other way round. But by then, it's too late. It no longer matters. Nothing matters. Nothing, that is, except your new lover. The only one who knows how to love you properly. How to love you wholly. The one who is always there for you, to make the world go away when it gets too much. It covers you both in a bubble of protective, impenetrable love.
Nothing will ever get in to hurt you, not here. Not ever. This is your special place. Where you commune with your God. And She tells you no lies, She loves you.This mighty Dragon Goddess Lover of yours. She loves you. You.
This, you know. Never harsh, never judgemental. Never argumentative. All She wants is you. All of you. Every little bit of you. More and more each day. And you want Her. You NEED Her. Every moment you spend apart, becomes unbearable. She fills your being with need, with want, with Love. She is your everything. Your Perfect Day. Your Brown Sugar, Golden Brown, you realise she has had so many other Lovers before you. So very many. Yet she still has everything to give to you. Her Love. Your need to have her near to you for always, over rides everything. Food, Family, Friends, a home, other people. Anything else. All you need is Her. She fulfills you. Consumes you. Nurtures you with her pure Loving touch.

She heals all the pain and hurt the World throws at you. Never abandons you. Never threatens to leave you. But she is a Jealous Lover. And the pain she feels if you try to walk away from her, becomes your pain too.
Her abscence is a bottomless pit of pain, anguish, grief, and misery. Made all the worse, because you know it could all be washed away, and forgiven, if you just had a tiny, tiny last hit of Her. One touch of her warm fingers in your brain, will make all the pain just go away. Again.

She is needy, she is greedy, she has such huge abandonement issues, rejection is only ever partial with Her. She knows you won't stay away for long. In fact She's waiting for you now, with open arms. Forgiving, full of all that Love. She will wait forever for you. She loves you. You know you still love her too. Even after all this time. Nearly 30 years since you saw her last. But you still feel her within you. Still love her. It's never too late with Her.

This kind of thing is why you really shouldn't get into Heroin. If you are Her type, then all other Drugs will eventually lead you to Her. There is no question about this. She will have you. All you have to do, to show willing is Chase that Dragon a couple of times. What harm can it do? It's just a ride.

You've an amazing understanding of smack for someone for who  never really found it to be their drug of choice. It was (and probably if I am honest, still is) my first choice. Which is why I steer well clear of it. But then I am one for whom the world has proved to be very sharp edged. Smack smoothes those edges off. Rounds them. Cushions you from the lacerations which the the razor's edge of life seems to inflict upon the souls of some of us.

Those who have ever used it because they have never needed it. Who are able, through some accident of nature or nurture, to deal with their pain in better ways;  who have only ever witnessed its effects from the outside; they will never understand what so many might find so attractive in it. Why, they must ask themselves would you wish to pay through the nose for something which only leads to you lying semi-comatose  beside a bucket? And becoming a total arsehole. Dull, dependent, needy and demanding. And with a stunning lack of conversation.

That's because hammer is a deeply personal relationship. It's between you and the gear. Exclusive.  Obsessive. Compulsive.

And addictive. Rampantly, madly addictive. Not just  physically, but emotionally and mentally. Oh I know it has a short half life. I know that physically you quite quickly become addicted. A matter of weeks with regular use. . But long before that. Weeks and weeks before the aches and the shakes. The itching and  want set in, you know what you're seeking. And you know that no matter how much you drink, how much you smoke, how many e's you down...nothing will cradle you like hammer does.

Long before. the  physiological addiction kicks in, it's got you . If you're looking for a pain killer, you need look no further than heroin. And if you look at it too long, you may never look away.

I hate to quote such a shocker of a film, but it had me at hello.

It had me when I realised that through it's velvet haze I could look at my own pain, as if from above. Detached and  neutral. Examining it. Fascinated by its complexity. Not floored by its power and seared by its white heat.  

When you're pinned you can examine those aspects of your life,. Those episodes of abuse and loss and grief - as if they  happened about you; but not to you. In the same way as reading a well written book or watching a great play will affect you. You know there is pain. Terrible pain.  You can think about it. You can feel for that poor bitch who suffered so badly. But it's not your pain anymore. It's happening off stage. A flashback to something someone went through , somewhere else. Sometime.

And for the first time, you can stop and think about what happened. Interpret motive and means and effect. It makes you feel as if you've finally got a handle on it. That you might at long last be able understand what the fuck went on...and how...and why. And to whom.

But it's a lying bastard. It promises so much. It tells you you'll never feel despair again. Never know solitude or loss. It tells you it will never leave. It says it loves you as much as you love it. It will never cheat on you. Never betray you. Never fail to be there when you need it.

But it will. It will drag you through gutters full of shit. It will abandon you on street corners. Leave you sobbing and desolate. Inconsolable. Afraid and alone as you've never been alone before. Weeping like a whipped child.

Because when it leaves you. When you  can't score. When there's a drought. When you're out of money and people to borrow from. When there are no more stereos to hock, no more corners to be cut in the weekly budget,  then the pain comes back. That pain that you thought you had buried within it's soft white folds. It springs back at you with a vengeance. Like a ravenous tiger, the pain devours you..Seemingly more powerful than ever before; because it has been gone so long. The shock of it like electricity to your genitals.

And  you'll do anything to make that hurt stop. You'll do things you thought you'd never stoop to. Willingly. Eagerly. You'll throw yourself on degradation and humiliation. On larceny and subterfuge. You'll lie and cheat. Steal and whore and manipulate. Anything you need to do, to get that magic hit...because the needle is there in the corner of your mind winking at you,  promising you ,luring you and lying to you,

"I can make it better baby. I can make you feel so good."

[BabylonHoruv]

Although I am loving the heroin stuff shouldn't it go in a different thread?  Heroin is definitely not a psychedelic.

[BadBeast]

No, it's not.  But it was only really brought up because the OP was saying all that "Oh, I won't get addicted" stuff, that is usually a pre-amble to addiction. So the point was worth labouring on, and I hope he's taken it on board.
I'd just as soon get back to Psychedelics. Heroin is boring.

[Payne]

I think Pixie should post more.  I've seen her posting before about her own struggle with drug induced mental problems and, although I know they are mostly pot induced, I think they're probably the biggest "no don't do this!" I have seen from anyone on the boards yet.  Especcially if the interest is for fun as opposed to spiritual or exploratory reasons.  Fun, even a lot of fun, is not worth a risk of schizophrenia.

Well from my point of view, this is how it goes:

Pixies issues are not in my opinion pot induced (certainly not "mostly"), more of a large combination of factors including a lot of stress, OTC medication (which she was taking for a tootache - both Co-Codamol tablets and Benzoncain gel), family history and then some pot over the top of that.

I myself still blame the stress mostly, (even now she has an almost "allergic" reaction to most stress) and the familial predisposition to problems of this kind.

What you do see in a lot of her posts though is a pretty good warning that you HAVE to know the risks of whatever you're putting in your body and balance them properly. The shrroms thing, or the pot thing, or the medication thing.... All of the experiences you might have are never going to be worth it if you have even the mildest of psychotic breaks.

The pot makes things mostly worse for her now, so she stays off it and all other drugs excepting some booze and nicotine.

[BadBeast]

Good points, Payne. Pixie (whilst freely attesting to periods of being mad as a box of frogs) has always come across as thoughtful and intelligent, and her posts are usually well considered, well written, and to the point. It's obvious she doesn't post anything she hasn't thought about, and the content of her material suggests a mostly ordered and logical (for a chick) thought process.

But there is little doubt that taking Psychedelics can profoundly alter the way you look at things, but I am of the thought that an awful lot of Psychotic behaviour, and neuroses, have had their root causes conveniently traced back to use of recreational Drugs, for Political reasons to justify keeping these Drugs illegal.

As example, I feel that the legalisation of weed, would be a massive kick in the teeth to companies currently involved in research and development of Anti-depressants. How relevant would all the Benzodiazapienes be, if rather than go to a Doctor for a script, people (over the last 30 years) were legally allowed to smoke a little weed whenever they needed to unwind?    Many of these Drugs (And more importantly, their research grants) would be made obsolete overnight. 
Cannabis is one of the most versatile medicinal plants there is. It's analgesic, relaxant, anti-depressant, anti-hypertension, appetite stimulant, cardio-vasodilatory, sedative, and euphoric qualities are all well documented, researched, and verified. It's non-addictive nature means it is safe for use, without any supervisory Medical involvement, and yet, we are deemed to be too irresponsible to be trusted with any access to it. And this is just one plant. 

Now mushrooms are illegal too.    Which really pisses me off. (Not enough to stop picking as many as I can in the season)  Because they have never been problematic to society, or high profile, or contributary to crime levels, or even particularly popular compared to other recreationals like Cocaine or Speed. Acid was never a Drug of addiction either. And you can't overdose on it. There is a point at which it doesn't matter how much more Acid you take, you don't get any higher, (I pegged it at 25 fresh blotters)    but this point will vary from person to person.
And the other thing that pisses me off, is that the Drug laws were introduced, ostensibly to
protect people from the dangers of Drug use. Yet these Laws, in 9 out of 10 cases, are only implemented against the people they are supposed to protect, which marginalises them even more than the Drug itself.

During the 1970's The amount of amphetamines prescribed, was greater than the sum of all the other Drugs
prescribed put together. But society didn't fall apart. The biggest users of them, were Housewives. (Who may have got a little OCD with the Housework, but that's not really a problem, is it?)
Now, the official stance is that this group of Drugs have no therapeutic value whatsoever. Their use was only curbed, when they started to become popular with Kids, who used to stay up all night, Dancing.  What the fuck is wrong with that? Amphetamines were fine to hand out to Soldiers in WWI & WWII, after all, it was cheaper than feeding them, lighter to carry around than bulky old food, and sharpened the Soldiers attention. So they were good. Now that we don't have a War on, they are bad. Double standards again.  Nothing ever changes, does it?

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

I think Pixie should post more.  I've seen her posting before about her own struggle with drug induced mental problems and, although I know they are mostly pot induced, I think they're probably the biggest "no don't do this!" I have seen from anyone on the boards yet.  Especcially if the interest is for fun as opposed to spiritual or exploratory reasons.  Fun, even a lot of fun, is not worth a risk of schizophrenia.

Well from my point of view, this is how it goes:

Pixies issues are not in my opinion pot induced (certainly not "mostly"), more of a large combination of factors including a lot of stress, OTC medication (which she was taking for a tootache - both Co-Codamol tablets and Benzoncain gel), family history and then some pot over the top of that.

I myself still blame the stress mostly, (even now she has an almost "allergic" reaction to most stress) and the familial predisposition to problems of this kind.

What you do see in a lot of her posts though is a pretty good warning that you HAVE to know the risks of whatever you're putting in your body and balance them properly. The shrroms thing, or the pot thing, or the medication thing.... All of the experiences you might have are never going to be worth it if you have even the mildest of psychotic breaks.

The pot makes things mostly worse for her now, so she stays off it and all other drugs excepting some booze and nicotine.

I also think that MAYBE the long term pot smoking was an equal factor. Anyway mad as a bag of frogs sounds funny, but assuredly is not. I also did a hell of a lot of shrooms over the years and that was probably some of the first warning signs.

But the stress thing is very true. I dont post as much here as I used to cos the meds are a bugger to swim thru in the morning.

One thing fo' sho', tho, If i had me a time machine I would have told me not to bosh everything as hard as I have, to be on the safe side. A little experimentation I guess was harmless, but i have had a tendency to take things to extremes.

I would say MDMA and shrooms were fun, yes, but in retrospect i wouldnt have used them, or pot as heavily if i had known. There will be warning signs, in my case several years in advance, but only little ones, so stay aware of that if Daalek decides to go down that path, and at the slightest sign, knock em on the head.

[Ruby]

Cheese and rice, if the government wanted volunteers for experimentation, they'd only have to read into this thread. Just think, a druggie's dream come true.