Psychedelics question

[BabylonHoruv]

Ahem.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9522-magic-mushrooms-really-cause-spiritual-experiences.html

Yeah, the chemicals in your brain are the same.  That doesn't mean that they "really" cause spiritual experiences.  Like ECH said, he hasn't had a spiritual experience on them.  However he almost certainly did have the same chemicals in his brain as a saint or yogi undergoing a spiritual experience.

Well, to me there is no difference between what "really" is a spiritual experience and the chemicals in my brain.

I don't get it, you just called yourself an atheist and then you say there is a difference between a spiritual experience and a certain chemical configuration in your brain? Then what is the difference made of? Hypothetical invisible pink unicorns?

For me, I mean, there is no difference in some sense*. Cause you know those people, the rationalists that say "love" is just a chemical configuration in your brain? It's the same thing, they are right, in some sense, but IMO life becomes pretty boring if you only look at it that way. In fact, you could almost literally say, life loses some of its magic

Now, I'm not saying that if you consider "love" to be something more than just chemicals, you also should consider a spiritual experience more than just a hallucination or whatever. I'm perfectly alright with everybody having their own opinion on that.

(* sorry but here it means exactly what I want to say)

I'm not an Atheist, I can't understand atheists at all.  I was raised pagan, in a tradition that includes direct experiences of the divine.  I DO believe it has a spiritual quality when I have a spiritual experience and I don't believe that experience can be quantified, or measured.  I know that there are a ton of variables even in the chemical side of things, and obviously ones attitude toward the substance is going to induce chemicals in their brains that are different.  Perhaps it would be possible to measure those differences, but I still don't think that if you were able to change that chemical to the same as the one for someone who did believe it was a real spiritual experience that that would make it so.  Not without destroying the person's Atheism.

To Lysergic.  I would agree that using archetypes Aya has a feminine energy.  For me it was a bit like taking a tour of another dimension, with a tour guide.  Aya (the MAOI containing plant, in this case Yage vine) was there, telling me what was going on and keeping me safe from the things I encountered.  Guided felt more accurate than guiding, she didn't tell me what to do, where I could go, how to fix my problems, nothing like that, she just explained what I was seeing, the only directive she gave me was don't do DMT powder.  It definitely did take me to another world, for timeless periods, My friend who was trip sitting said they were about 20 minutes each, but he did not have a watch, then I would be back in the "real" world, but in a very altered state.  Interacting with the fire, or the crickets, or the stars (actually, the stars did not respond to me, the fire and crickets did, and my friend saw and heard that too, although admittedly fire will respond to anyone who puts wood on it or blows on it)

Aya is certainly more "expensive" in a physical sense, it induces puking and you have to be careful about your diet or the MAOI can kill you.  I also restricted my diet for spiritual reasons for about a month beforehand (not quite as tight as the Aya Shamans, but I tried to follow their guidelines) No idea if that is necessary or not, Aya didn't really say.

[Lies]

Ahem.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9522-magic-mushrooms-really-cause-spiritual-experiences.html

Yeah, the chemicals in your brain are the same.  That doesn't mean that they "really" cause spiritual experiences.  Like ECH said, he hasn't had a spiritual experience on them.  However he almost certainly did have the same chemicals in his brain as a saint or yogi undergoing a spiritual experience.

Well, to me there is no difference between what "really" is a spiritual experience and the chemicals in my brain.

I don't get it, you just called yourself an atheist and then you say there is a difference between a spiritual experience and a certain chemical configuration in your brain? Then what is the difference made of? Hypothetical invisible pink unicorns?

For me, I mean, there is no difference in some sense*. Cause you know those people, the rationalists that say "love" is just a chemical configuration in your brain? It's the same thing, they are right, in some sense, but IMO life becomes pretty boring if you only look at it that way. In fact, you could almost literally say, life loses some of its magic

Now, I'm not saying that if you consider "love" to be something more than just chemicals, you also should consider a spiritual experience more than just a hallucination or whatever. I'm perfectly alright with everybody having their own opinion on that.

(* sorry but here it means exactly what I want to say)

I'm not an Atheist, I can't understand atheists at all.  I was raised pagan, in a tradition that includes direct experiences of the divine.  I DO believe it has a spiritual quality when I have a spiritual experience and I don't believe that experience can be quantified, or measured.  I know that there are a ton of variables even in the chemical side of things, and obviously ones attitude toward the substance is going to induce chemicals in their brains that are different.  Perhaps it would be possible to measure those differences, but I still don't think that if you were able to change that chemical to the same as the one for someone who did believe it was a real spiritual experience that that would make it so.  Not without destroying the person's Atheism.

To Lysergic.  I would agree that using archetypes Aya has a feminine energy.  For me it was a bit like taking a tour of another dimension, with a tour guide.  Aya (the MAOI containing plant, in this case Yage vine) was there, telling me what was going on and keeping me safe from the things I encountered.  Guided felt more accurate than guiding, she didn't tell me what to do, where I could go, how to fix my problems, nothing like that, she just explained what I was seeing, the only directive she gave me was don't do DMT powder.  It definitely did take me to another world, for timeless periods, My friend who was trip sitting said they were about 20 minutes each, but he did not have a watch, then I would be back in the "real" world, but in a very altered state.  Interacting with the fire, or the crickets, or the stars (actually, the stars did not respond to me, the fire and crickets did, and my friend saw and heard that too, although admittedly fire will respond to anyone who puts wood on it or blows on it)

Aya is certainly more "expensive" in a physical sense, it induces puking and you have to be careful about your diet or the MAOI can kill you.  I also restricted my diet for spiritual reasons for about a month beforehand (not quite as tight as the Aya Shamans, but I tried to follow their guidelines) No idea if that is necessary or not, Aya didn't really say.

Well in that sense that Aya is the taking of a tour of another dimension with a guide, DMT kinda just throws you into another dimension and leaves you to figure it all out for yourself.

[BabylonHoruv]

Ahem.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9522-magic-mushrooms-really-cause-spiritual-experiences.html

Yeah, the chemicals in your brain are the same.  That doesn't mean that they "really" cause spiritual experiences.  Like ECH said, he hasn't had a spiritual experience on them.  However he almost certainly did have the same chemicals in his brain as a saint or yogi undergoing a spiritual experience.

Well, to me there is no difference between what "really" is a spiritual experience and the chemicals in my brain.

I don't get it, you just called yourself an atheist and then you say there is a difference between a spiritual experience and a certain chemical configuration in your brain? Then what is the difference made of? Hypothetical invisible pink unicorns?

For me, I mean, there is no difference in some sense*. Cause you know those people, the rationalists that say "love" is just a chemical configuration in your brain? It's the same thing, they are right, in some sense, but IMO life becomes pretty boring if you only look at it that way. In fact, you could almost literally say, life loses some of its magic

Now, I'm not saying that if you consider "love" to be something more than just chemicals, you also should consider a spiritual experience more than just a hallucination or whatever. I'm perfectly alright with everybody having their own opinion on that.

(* sorry but here it means exactly what I want to say)

I'm not an Atheist, I can't understand atheists at all.  I was raised pagan, in a tradition that includes direct experiences of the divine.  I DO believe it has a spiritual quality when I have a spiritual experience and I don't believe that experience can be quantified, or measured.  I know that there are a ton of variables even in the chemical side of things, and obviously ones attitude toward the substance is going to induce chemicals in their brains that are different.  Perhaps it would be possible to measure those differences, but I still don't think that if you were able to change that chemical to the same as the one for someone who did believe it was a real spiritual experience that that would make it so.  Not without destroying the person's Atheism.

To Lysergic.  I would agree that using archetypes Aya has a feminine energy.  For me it was a bit like taking a tour of another dimension, with a tour guide.  Aya (the MAOI containing plant, in this case Yage vine) was there, telling me what was going on and keeping me safe from the things I encountered.  Guided felt more accurate than guiding, she didn't tell me what to do, where I could go, how to fix my problems, nothing like that, she just explained what I was seeing, the only directive she gave me was don't do DMT powder.  It definitely did take me to another world, for timeless periods, My friend who was trip sitting said they were about 20 minutes each, but he did not have a watch, then I would be back in the "real" world, but in a very altered state.  Interacting with the fire, or the crickets, or the stars (actually, the stars did not respond to me, the fire and crickets did, and my friend saw and heard that too, although admittedly fire will respond to anyone who puts wood on it or blows on it)

Aya is certainly more "expensive" in a physical sense, it induces puking and you have to be careful about your diet or the MAOI can kill you.  I also restricted my diet for spiritual reasons for about a month beforehand (not quite as tight as the Aya Shamans, but I tried to follow their guidelines) No idea if that is necessary or not, Aya didn't really say.

Well in that sense that Aya is the taking of a tour of another dimension with a guide, DMT kinda just throws you into another dimension and leaves you to figure it all out for yourself.

I'm a natural escapist, so that is very appealing.  That's about what I have heard from other people too.  It also sounds like something that would be very bad for me.  And not something I'd suggest for all, being tossed into another dimension could be traumatic in a bad way for a lot of people.

[Lies]

Ahem.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9522-magic-mushrooms-really-cause-spiritual-experiences.html

Yeah, the chemicals in your brain are the same.  That doesn't mean that they "really" cause spiritual experiences.  Like ECH said, he hasn't had a spiritual experience on them.  However he almost certainly did have the same chemicals in his brain as a saint or yogi undergoing a spiritual experience.

Well, to me there is no difference between what "really" is a spiritual experience and the chemicals in my brain.

I don't get it, you just called yourself an atheist and then you say there is a difference between a spiritual experience and a certain chemical configuration in your brain? Then what is the difference made of? Hypothetical invisible pink unicorns?

For me, I mean, there is no difference in some sense*. Cause you know those people, the rationalists that say "love" is just a chemical configuration in your brain? It's the same thing, they are right, in some sense, but IMO life becomes pretty boring if you only look at it that way. In fact, you could almost literally say, life loses some of its magic

Now, I'm not saying that if you consider "love" to be something more than just chemicals, you also should consider a spiritual experience more than just a hallucination or whatever. I'm perfectly alright with everybody having their own opinion on that.

(* sorry but here it means exactly what I want to say)

I'm not an Atheist, I can't understand atheists at all.  I was raised pagan, in a tradition that includes direct experiences of the divine.  I DO believe it has a spiritual quality when I have a spiritual experience and I don't believe that experience can be quantified, or measured.  I know that there are a ton of variables even in the chemical side of things, and obviously ones attitude toward the substance is going to induce chemicals in their brains that are different.  Perhaps it would be possible to measure those differences, but I still don't think that if you were able to change that chemical to the same as the one for someone who did believe it was a real spiritual experience that that would make it so.  Not without destroying the person's Atheism.

To Lysergic.  I would agree that using archetypes Aya has a feminine energy.  For me it was a bit like taking a tour of another dimension, with a tour guide.  Aya (the MAOI containing plant, in this case Yage vine) was there, telling me what was going on and keeping me safe from the things I encountered.  Guided felt more accurate than guiding, she didn't tell me what to do, where I could go, how to fix my problems, nothing like that, she just explained what I was seeing, the only directive she gave me was don't do DMT powder.  It definitely did take me to another world, for timeless periods, My friend who was trip sitting said they were about 20 minutes each, but he did not have a watch, then I would be back in the "real" world, but in a very altered state.  Interacting with the fire, or the crickets, or the stars (actually, the stars did not respond to me, the fire and crickets did, and my friend saw and heard that too, although admittedly fire will respond to anyone who puts wood on it or blows on it)

Aya is certainly more "expensive" in a physical sense, it induces puking and you have to be careful about your diet or the MAOI can kill you.  I also restricted my diet for spiritual reasons for about a month beforehand (not quite as tight as the Aya Shamans, but I tried to follow their guidelines) No idea if that is necessary or not, Aya didn't really say.

Well in that sense that Aya is the taking of a tour of another dimension with a guide, DMT kinda just throws you into another dimension and leaves you to figure it all out for yourself.

I'm a natural escapist, so that is very appealing.  That's about what I have heard from other people too.  It also sounds like something that would be very bad for me.  And not something I'd suggest for all, being tossed into another dimension could be traumatic in a bad way for a lot of people.

Well, the way I think about it, if you were to ever only do one "hard" drug in your life, it should be DMT.
It'll either scare you off all drugs for life or keep you content until your next life.
Sometimes, people need a traumatic experience to "wake up", so to speak.

And as far as I know, no one has walked away from a DMT experience and thought it to be a bad thing.
A very intense, very earth shattering thing, definitely, but negative, I've yet to hear of.

I know someone who used to have schizophrenia until he did DMT. It set him straight and he never did it (or any other hard drug) again...

[BabylonHoruv]

Ahem.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9522-magic-mushrooms-really-cause-spiritual-experiences.html

Yeah, the chemicals in your brain are the same.  That doesn't mean that they "really" cause spiritual experiences.  Like ECH said, he hasn't had a spiritual experience on them.  However he almost certainly did have the same chemicals in his brain as a saint or yogi undergoing a spiritual experience.

Well, to me there is no difference between what "really" is a spiritual experience and the chemicals in my brain.

I don't get it, you just called yourself an atheist and then you say there is a difference between a spiritual experience and a certain chemical configuration in your brain? Then what is the difference made of? Hypothetical invisible pink unicorns?

For me, I mean, there is no difference in some sense*. Cause you know those people, the rationalists that say "love" is just a chemical configuration in your brain? It's the same thing, they are right, in some sense, but IMO life becomes pretty boring if you only look at it that way. In fact, you could almost literally say, life loses some of its magic

Now, I'm not saying that if you consider "love" to be something more than just chemicals, you also should consider a spiritual experience more than just a hallucination or whatever. I'm perfectly alright with everybody having their own opinion on that.

(* sorry but here it means exactly what I want to say)

I'm not an Atheist, I can't understand atheists at all.  I was raised pagan, in a tradition that includes direct experiences of the divine.  I DO believe it has a spiritual quality when I have a spiritual experience and I don't believe that experience can be quantified, or measured.  I know that there are a ton of variables even in the chemical side of things, and obviously ones attitude toward the substance is going to induce chemicals in their brains that are different.  Perhaps it would be possible to measure those differences, but I still don't think that if you were able to change that chemical to the same as the one for someone who did believe it was a real spiritual experience that that would make it so.  Not without destroying the person's Atheism.

To Lysergic.  I would agree that using archetypes Aya has a feminine energy.  For me it was a bit like taking a tour of another dimension, with a tour guide.  Aya (the MAOI containing plant, in this case Yage vine) was there, telling me what was going on and keeping me safe from the things I encountered.  Guided felt more accurate than guiding, she didn't tell me what to do, where I could go, how to fix my problems, nothing like that, she just explained what I was seeing, the only directive she gave me was don't do DMT powder.  It definitely did take me to another world, for timeless periods, My friend who was trip sitting said they were about 20 minutes each, but he did not have a watch, then I would be back in the "real" world, but in a very altered state.  Interacting with the fire, or the crickets, or the stars (actually, the stars did not respond to me, the fire and crickets did, and my friend saw and heard that too, although admittedly fire will respond to anyone who puts wood on it or blows on it)

Aya is certainly more "expensive" in a physical sense, it induces puking and you have to be careful about your diet or the MAOI can kill you.  I also restricted my diet for spiritual reasons for about a month beforehand (not quite as tight as the Aya Shamans, but I tried to follow their guidelines) No idea if that is necessary or not, Aya didn't really say.

Well in that sense that Aya is the taking of a tour of another dimension with a guide, DMT kinda just throws you into another dimension and leaves you to figure it all out for yourself.

I'm a natural escapist, so that is very appealing.  That's about what I have heard from other people too.  It also sounds like something that would be very bad for me.  And not something I'd suggest for all, being tossed into another dimension could be traumatic in a bad way for a lot of people.

Well, the way I think about it, if you were to ever only do one "hard" drug in your life, it should be DMT.
It'll either scare you off all drugs for life or keep you content until your next life.
Sometimes, people need a traumatic experience to "wake up", so to speak.

And as far as I know, no one has walked away from a DMT experience and thought it to be a bad thing.
A very intense, very earth shattering thing, definitely, but negative, I've yet to hear of.

I know someone who used to have schizophrenia until he did DMT. It set him straight and he never did it (or any other hard drug) again...

I did that to someone with Dramamine.  Dramamine is a deleriant, same family of chemicals as Belladonna and Jimsonweed (well, there's also atropine in belladonna, which just kills you) He wanted to try the hardest drug out there, I told him that it was dramamine in my experience, and after that he was off drugs.  It damaged him though in ways that I didn't see the extent of becuase part of his change in life was cutting off contact with me.

I haven't heard of DMT doing anything bad to people, I have seen people get some really whacky ideas after Aya trips that they took quite seriously.  Some changed their diets in ways which were harmful to them.  One became a really obnoxious born again Christian. 

[Triple Zero]

To me, it confirmed... well, nothing, it just gave me a lot more questions.
I've seen a side of reality that a very very small percentage of the population could ever hope to see, what it is exactly is impossible to describe, it's one of those "You had to be there" kinda things.

Question, is the point--and I'm speaking from shroom experience here--that it showed you that reality is really, or not really, but more a sense of in how much (your) reality is defined by the stuff that's going on in your head (and conhe isequently the drugs you feed it)?

That's what I took from shrooms, especially my one bad trip. For some reason, afterwards, I got the idea that, if your whole reality can be altered that much by just a bit of shroom tea, can I ever even *begin* to imagine what reality must look like to a mussel on the sea floor with only its trunk/slurf to explore its immediate surroundings?

I suppose that realization will be even stronger when DMT simply *flash-bang!* replaces your reality with something entirely different.

Although on the other hand, it would also be easier to dismiss as "just the drug", where a strong dose of shrooms creates more of an overlay.

[Lies]

Ahem.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9522-magic-mushrooms-really-cause-spiritual-experiences.html

Yeah, the chemicals in your brain are the same.  That doesn't mean that they "really" cause spiritual experiences.  Like ECH said, he hasn't had a spiritual experience on them.  However he almost certainly did have the same chemicals in his brain as a saint or yogi undergoing a spiritual experience.

Well, to me there is no difference between what "really" is a spiritual experience and the chemicals in my brain.

I don't get it, you just called yourself an atheist and then you say there is a difference between a spiritual experience and a certain chemical configuration in your brain? Then what is the difference made of? Hypothetical invisible pink unicorns?

For me, I mean, there is no difference in some sense*. Cause you know those people, the rationalists that say "love" is just a chemical configuration in your brain? It's the same thing, they are right, in some sense, but IMO life becomes pretty boring if you only look at it that way. In fact, you could almost literally say, life loses some of its magic

Now, I'm not saying that if you consider "love" to be something more than just chemicals, you also should consider a spiritual experience more than just a hallucination or whatever. I'm perfectly alright with everybody having their own opinion on that.

(* sorry but here it means exactly what I want to say)

I'm not an Atheist, I can't understand atheists at all.  I was raised pagan, in a tradition that includes direct experiences of the divine.  I DO believe it has a spiritual quality when I have a spiritual experience and I don't believe that experience can be quantified, or measured.  I know that there are a ton of variables even in the chemical side of things, and obviously ones attitude toward the substance is going to induce chemicals in their brains that are different.  Perhaps it would be possible to measure those differences, but I still don't think that if you were able to change that chemical to the same as the one for someone who did believe it was a real spiritual experience that that would make it so.  Not without destroying the person's Atheism.

To Lysergic.  I would agree that using archetypes Aya has a feminine energy.  For me it was a bit like taking a tour of another dimension, with a tour guide.  Aya (the MAOI containing plant, in this case Yage vine) was there, telling me what was going on and keeping me safe from the things I encountered.  Guided felt more accurate than guiding, she didn't tell me what to do, where I could go, how to fix my problems, nothing like that, she just explained what I was seeing, the only directive she gave me was don't do DMT powder.  It definitely did take me to another world, for timeless periods, My friend who was trip sitting said they were about 20 minutes each, but he did not have a watch, then I would be back in the "real" world, but in a very altered state.  Interacting with the fire, or the crickets, or the stars (actually, the stars did not respond to me, the fire and crickets did, and my friend saw and heard that too, although admittedly fire will respond to anyone who puts wood on it or blows on it)

Aya is certainly more "expensive" in a physical sense, it induces puking and you have to be careful about your diet or the MAOI can kill you.  I also restricted my diet for spiritual reasons for about a month beforehand (not quite as tight as the Aya Shamans, but I tried to follow their guidelines) No idea if that is necessary or not, Aya didn't really say.

Well in that sense that Aya is the taking of a tour of another dimension with a guide, DMT kinda just throws you into another dimension and leaves you to figure it all out for yourself.

I'm a natural escapist, so that is very appealing.  That's about what I have heard from other people too.  It also sounds like something that would be very bad for me.  And not something I'd suggest for all, being tossed into another dimension could be traumatic in a bad way for a lot of people.

Well, the way I think about it, if you were to ever only do one "hard" drug in your life, it should be DMT.
It'll either scare you off all drugs for life or keep you content until your next life.
Sometimes, people need a traumatic experience to "wake up", so to speak.

And as far as I know, no one has walked away from a DMT experience and thought it to be a bad thing.
A very intense, very earth shattering thing, definitely, but negative, I've yet to hear of.

I know someone who used to have schizophrenia until he did DMT. It set him straight and he never did it (or any other hard drug) again...

I did that to someone with Dramamine.  Dramamine is a deleriant, same family of chemicals as Belladonna and Jimsonweed (well, there's also atropine in belladonna, which just kills you) He wanted to try the hardest drug out there, I told him that it was dramamine in my experience, and after that he was off drugs.  It damaged him though in ways that I didn't see the extent of becuase part of his change in life was cutting off contact with me.

I haven't heard of DMT doing anything bad to people, I have seen people get some really whacky ideas after Aya trips that they took quite seriously.  Some changed their diets in ways which were harmful to them.  One became a really obnoxious born again Christian. 

I think I remember hearing something about the born again christian thing.

I don't know how you can take Aya and walk away thinking you need to follow Jesus, something about that just sounds... so fucking wrong.
I suppose there is no cure for "stupid" though, no matter what drug you take.

[Lies]

To me, it confirmed... well, nothing, it just gave me a lot more questions.
I've seen a side of reality that a very very small percentage of the population could ever hope to see, what it is exactly is impossible to describe, it's one of those "You had to be there" kinda things.

Question, is the point--and I'm speaking from shroom experience here--that it showed you that reality is really, or not really, but more a sense of in how much (your) reality is defined by the stuff that's going on in your head (and conhe isequently the drugs you feed it)?

That's what I took from shrooms, especially my one bad trip. For some reason, afterwards, I got the idea that, if your whole reality can be altered that much by just a bit of shroom tea, can I ever even *begin* to imagine what reality must look like to a mussel on the sea floor with only its trunk/slurf to explore its immediate surroundings?

I suppose that realization will be even stronger when DMT simply *flash-bang!* replaces your reality with something entirely different.

Although on the other hand, it would also be easier to dismiss as "just the drug", where a strong dose of shrooms creates more of an overlay.

I kind of.. don't get the question Trip. Though I sort of think I can see what you're trying to say.
There is a realisation that the way you see reality is defined by the input/output chemical reactions that are going on in your mind, and that reality can be so different depending on what's going on in there.

But yes, DMT kinda just throws a whole new perspective on what life and reality is.

I sort of liken it to being a realm of pure energy and possibility, the answer to the eternal "divide by zero" question.
It could very well be "just the drug", but something tells me there's more to it then just a drug reaction. I think, it's in the realm of where you go when you sleep, and when you die. It's the "otherside" that so many of us wonder about... (or one of the sides, at least, anyway...)

[AFK]

And on the flipside regarding police, have *you* ever been dealt with by police after being caught with drugs?
I have. And it's no fun, they don't seem to give a shit about your welfare at all, they don't treat you as somebody who needs help, they treat you like a fucking common criminal, no better then a murderer or a child rapist, so it's good to know your rights when you're being fucked over by police.

I work side by side with quite a few police officers in my community.  And I've worked with other police officers across the state at the state and local levels.  To a person they have been people who are doing their best to protect and serve their communities.  Every single one of them have worked to help improve conditions that lead kids to getting into drugs.  No, I'm not talking about arresting them.  I'm talking about working on policies and initiatives that get kids help instead of in jail.  I'm talking about starting up soccer leagues to foster good relationships with kids in the community. 

Sure there are some cops who are pricks and just want to bust kids and adults with drugs.  But in my many years of experience working with police, they are largely very honorable people who want to work with people, not against them.  Maybe it's different in Australia. 

It does have lot's of warnings on many of the chemicals there and it tells you what combination of drugs are bad and how to look after yourself and your friends who are on drugs, something a lot of what I think you'd call "non-biased" sites would rarely tell you.

[citation needed]  

One such example- http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/pharmacology/pharmacology_enzymes1.shtml
And another- http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/heroin/heroin_health2.shtml
And this- http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois_info8.shtml
There are many more if you bother to have a proper look around.

The [citation needed] refers to the bolded part of your statement. 

I really believe that drug-treatment facilities and options should be rethunk, if we truely are serious about helping people get off drugs and we need to stop treating drug users like common criminals, there are good *people* who get addicted to drugs, and they should be treated as PATIENTS who needs HELP and not thrown behind bars and left to suffer.

I would say you have some shitty treatment centers in Australia, because my experience is much different.  All of the treatment centers in Maine, I can say, DO treat addicts as Patients and are very engaged in their treatment. 

I still don't see what's wrong with trying do-it-yourself detox as a *first* line of sobriety, and failing that, seeking professional help.
In fact, that happens a lot of the time.

Right, it happens a lot that self-detoxing fails which is my point.  It mostly doesn't work and therefore isn't something that should be encouraged. 

In your line of business, all you see are the failed attempts at self-detoxing. You're blind to those who are successful because hey, if they were successful, you never see them, right?

First, I don't work at a treatment agency anymore.  My new job is in a health promotion entity and I am a substance abuse prevention coordinator, not a treatment provider.  I work with treatment providers in many of my initiatives and programs.  But I'm not a provider myself. 

Second, it's time for some put up or shut up.  Give me some peer-reviewed research or stats that show a substantial percentage of drug addicts a) successfully going through self-detox and b) don't relapse into drug use after detox. 

I will gladly concede the point if you can provide that information. 

[Lies]

I work side by side with quite a few police officers in my community.  And I've worked with other police officers across the state at the state and local levels.  To a person they have been people who are doing their best to protect and serve their communities.  Every single one of them have worked to help improve conditions that lead kids to getting into drugs.  No, I'm not talking about arresting them.  I'm talking about working on policies and initiatives that get kids help instead of in jail.  I'm talking about starting up soccer leagues to foster good relationships with kids in the community.  

Sure there are some cops who are pricks and just want to bust kids and adults with drugs.  But in my many years of experience working with police, they are largely very honorable people who want to work with people, not against them.  Maybe it's different in Australia.  

Yeah, you only see the side they show you as a counselor. Most police encounters I and I'm sure anyone here who's had an experience with cops from the "busted" side can tell you, cop's don't give a shit about you.
Sure, they might care about "the kids" cus you know, they're young and stupid and need protecting, but they'll go gung ho on any mature adult that happens to have drugs on them, I can bet my bottom dollar this is the case in most places around the world, not just australia.

The [citation needed] refers to the bolded part of your statement.  

Ok, fair enough. I can't cite any sites at the moment, there are plenty of sites that do tell you how to look after friends that are high that aren't erowid, but I have in my web journies come across sites posing as "non biased" that are clearly of the 'DONT DO DRUGS OR ELSE YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS WILL HATE YOU, DRUGS ARE BAD MMKAY?" nature.  

Also, something else you completely ignored, is the fact that iboga can help people detox off herion much more effectively then methadone.
You'll never find that in most sites out there.

I would say you have some shitty treatment centers in Australia, because my experience is much different.  All of the treatment centers in Maine, I can say, DO treat addicts as Patients and are very engaged in their treatment.  

We do have treatment centers in Australia, their quality though can be debated on a case by case basis. . It's not so much the treatment centers that are the problem though, it's how police treat the average person with a bit of pot or one or two pills on them, they *don't* give a fuck about you, they just want o bust you and interrogate you and treat you like a lower class citizen. Fuck that shit. Just because people take drugs doesn't mean they should be treated like criminals.
And I know this is the case in America too.

Violent crime was not responsible for the quadrupling of the incarcerated population in the United States from 1980 to 2003. Violent crime rates had been relatively constant or declining over those decades. The prison population was increased primarily by public policy changes causing more prison sentences and lengthening time served, e.g. through mandatory minimum sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and reductions in the availability of parole or early release. These policies were championed as protecting the public from serious and violent offenders, but instead yielded high rates of confinement for nonviolent offenders. Nearly three quarters of new admissions to state prison were convicted of nonviolent crimes. Only 49 percent of sentenced state inmates were held for violent offenses. Perhaps the single greatest force behind the growth of the prison population has been the national "war on drugs." The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges

Right, it happens a lot that self-detoxing fails which is my point.  It mostly doesn't work and therefore isn't something that should be encouraged.  

That all depends on what you'd consider failure.
Some people binge on drugs, and then stop binging and minimize their drug use to the point where it no longer is causing issues in their life.
If you can hold down a job, pay your bills and still be a contributing member of society while still taking drugs occasionally, is this actually a *problem*?

First, I don't work at a treatment agency anymore.  My new job is in a health promotion entity and I am a substance abuse prevention coordinator, not a treatment provider.  I work with treatment providers in many of my initiatives and programs.  But I'm not a provider myself.  

Second, it's time for some put up or shut up.  Give me some peer-reviewed research or stats that show a substantial percentage of drug addicts a) successfully going through self-detox and b) don't relapse into drug use after detox.  

I will gladly concede the point if you can provide that information.  

Ok, fair enough, sorry I got your job description wrong, but my point remains.
See, the "beauty" of this little problem of stats and such, is that it falls into what you call "silent evidence".
i.e
Diagoras, a non-believer in the gods, was shown painted tablets bearing the portraits of some worshippers who prayed, then survived a subsequent shipwreck.
The implication was that praying protects you from drowning.
Diagoras asked, "Where are the pictures of those who prayed, then drowned?".

How can I provide stats of people that helped themselves off drugs and didn't relapse? Sure, you can show me plenty of stats that of people you see all the time self-detoxing and relapsing, because that's been the evidence you've seen and gathered.
But there are no studies on this, I cannot provide any proof of the opposite, because those who are successful don't report to drug agencies to tell them of it so they can note it in their information base, and once again, how do you define "successful"?

Confirmation Bias is a fun thing, isn't it?

[Scribbly]

Another thing with UK Police, that isn't so prevalent in US Police forces, is their Socialising is done exclusively with other Police Officers. Their personality (or lack of it) means they cannot relate to normal people. They can't stop being mistrustful, nosy, aloof, and superior. Which makes them piss poor company for anyone else. And if they are out, say at a Club, and they are recognised, they are in trouble. They do not have Uniform on. But they carry themselves like they are cock of the block still. They are fair game at these times. Vulnerable, because they aren't tooled up, or wearing those ridiculous stab jackets. If they get themselves into a fight, they are on their own. They can't ring up the Station for backup. Procedure would include their own arrest. And that isn't a good career move. So they are always edgy. They lie, about their job, if asked by anyone. They are told to do this, because it puts them in a vulnerable position. Where they might be targetted by a Villain, and forced to compromise themselves. Or the Force. Not much use to anyone, for anything much, any of them, IMO.

I just thought I'd take issue with this, as it is complete and utter bullshit from my experience.

I lived the last year with a police officer up in Birmingham. He was living in a student house, as he was a mate of ours who went on from studying a degree in police procedure to doing the rounds. He still socialized with us all on a regular basis, we'd often go for a drink, and he was still the same bloke he'd been studying, for the most part. He never tried to get the guys in the house who were into a bit of light pot busted or anything similar, though admittedly none of us were into heavier stuff.

Now, maybe the 'police officerness' hadn't sunk in yet because he'd only been doing it for a couple of years, but several coppers have also been family friends. They're regular people, go to the same pub as everyone else, and were pretty relaxed.

The idea that all police officers in the UK are some kind of separate breed definitely does not apply universally. Maybe that's been your experience, but it hasn't been mine. I've had a very middle class upbringing, though. I suspect that has more to do with how the police treat you than anything else.

[AFK]

Yeah, you only see the side they show you as a counselor. Most police encounters I and I'm sure anyone here who's had an experience with cops from the "busted" side can tell you, cop's don't give a shit about you.
Sure, they might care about "the kids" cus you know, they're young and stupid and need protecting, but they'll go gung ho on any mature adult that happens to have drugs on them, I can bet my bottom dollar this is the case in most places around the world, not just australia.

Pardon me but my view is broader than you think.  As an example, there was an incident at the local college a couple of months ago.  There were 200 or so college kids outside drinking.  Someone in the dorm called for an ambulance to take them to the hospital.  After the student was transported to the ambulance, the drunken crowd would not allow the ambulance to leave, they blocked it's path.  

Police responded to break up the crowd.  The crowd refused to disperse after many pleadings and warnings from the police.  Things escalated and it became necessary to break up the crowd and make arrests so the Ambulance could be on its way.  One of the police officers, who I know quite well, was going out of his way to not harm a particular individual who was violently resisting arrest.  He ended up breaking his leg in two places because of the way he had to shift his weight while trying to apprehend the individual and has been out of work ever since.  He would later be accused of police brutality and using his baton, but I've seen the police videos.  He never had the baton in his hand.  

And I know many other individuals like him.  They do their job and enforce the laws when they have to but they aren't on some "gung ho" mission, as you say, to arrest everyone everywhere doing drugs.  

The [citation needed] refers to the bolded part of your statement.  

Ok, fair enough. I can't cite any sites at the moment, there are plenty of sites that do tell you how to look after friends that are high that aren't erowid, but I have in my web journies come across sites posing as "non biased" that are clearly of the 'DONT DO DRUGS OR ELSE YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS WILL HATE YOU, DRUGS ARE BAD MMKAY?" nature.

It would be really helpful if you could actually offer examples of what you are talking about.    

Ok, fair enough, sorry I got your job description wrong, but my point remains.
See, the "beauty" of this little problem of stats and such, is that it falls into what you call "silent evidence".
i.e
Diagoras, a non-believer in the gods, was shown painted tablets bearing the portraits of some worshippers who prayed, then survived a subsequent shipwreck.
The implication was that praying protects you from drowning.
Diagoras asked, "Where are the pictures of those who prayed, then drowned?".

How can I provide stats of people that helped themselves off drugs and didn't relapse? Sure, you can show me plenty of stats that of people you see all the time self-detoxing and relapsing, because that's been the evidence you've seen and gathered.
But there are no studies on this, I cannot provide any proof of the opposite, because those who are successful don't report to drug agencies to tell them of it so they can note it in their information base, and once again, how do you define "successful"?

Confirmation Bias is a fun thing, isn't it?

Treatment agencies aren't the only entities that do research and collect statistics on drugs.  If self-detoxing really is such a viable option I would gather there is some peer-reviewed research by a university or think tank that provides that evidence.  Sorry, you're claim that "because treatment agencies don't collect this data so it doesn't exist" doesn't cut it.  

You can find stats on people who go cold turkey with cigarettes, who do you think collects that data?  

[LMNO]

So, what I'm getting from this is that some cops are pigs, and some are fair-minded civil servants; some people may respond positively to rehab treatments that have not been peer-reviewed yet; and erowid's bias leans towards the pro-user side of the population.


I think that's about as far as we're going to get.

[AFK]

Agreed.  So I'm out of this one before it turns into another crap fest.  Enjoy Lys!

[Lies]

Agreed.  So I'm out of this one before it turns into another crap fest.  Enjoy Lys!

I'll agree for the most part, but I don't think this is a crap fest.
I am listening to the points you have to make, and I'm not trying to argue with you so much as try and show you my side of thinking.

I respect the work you do and what you have to say, and I find it very interesting and enlightening. I do find it a bit saddening though that you're just ignoring some of the points I'm making and asking me for proof of things that I can't at this time show you.