REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[East Coast Hustle]

Waittagoddamn minute....


RWHN, are you REALLY saying that you think it's fair or right that a kid with a pot conviction can never get any federal aid for higher education for the rest of their life?

How the fuck is that being pro-children?

No, I didn't say that.  I would hope that there could be some leniency, especially if it is just one incident that didn't involve violence or trafficking.  But at some point we have to take some responsibility for our actions.  

What if at some point we decide we want to stop being involved in that world and better our lives but we can't because the fucking feds won't give us a fucking cent for college because of a fucking posession charge?

You think that you personally HOPING for some leniency is a valid response to the question?

Well considering I have approximately zero input and influence in that area, it is the best I can do.  I don't work on federal policies, I work on state and local policies.  But sure, if I had the opportunity to speak or give my two cents on some kind of panel or study, or whatever regarding this I certainly would advocate that kids get second chances to have access to that funding.  Of course, I don't see that happening without some strings attached, such as some kind of reporting that verifies the kid is staying clean.  Especially if it is a situation where there is a lot of competition for those funds.  

However, at the same time, it would be important to educate kids, as we do, what ALL of the consequences of using and selling drugs are, including the impacts upon their future.  And this is actually something we do.  Reality is reality whether I agree with it 100% or not.  As successful as I've been in local settings, I obviously can't move mountains and I don't have any kind of sway at that level.  So, in the meantime, kids need to know the lay of the land and understand the consequences of the decisions they make today.  

That didn't answer my question.

As it sits right now, do you think it is either fair or just that someone with a small-time marijuana charge on their record is barred for life from receiving any federal financial aid for higher education?

If you DO think it's just, can you offer any reason why such a policy makes any sense at all?

[Triple Zero]

And by the way, that super-potent 18% THC weed they're growing down there? It still wouldn't be able to compete with the good hydroponically-grown weed here in the PNW, the best strains of which top out at around 25%.

I was gonna say that ...

Their quote about "a normal marijuana plant's two to seven percent" is ridiculous, that would be incredibly shitty weed.

I'd say 18% is not "super-potent", rather call it "decent quality".

... btw you don't really get much hashish over there do you?

[Triple Zero]

It seems like super-potent weed would be really useful in the medical trade, enabling two to three times the therapeutic dose to be grown in the same space.

You know what's funny? The government-provided "medicinal weed" here is actually really shitty.

(At least, so I've heard. I've never really tried any.)

[AFK]

I keep trying to bite my tongue but I'm giving it the fuck up.

Every time I see someone trot out the "they knew it was illegal" defense of the absolutely idiotic, inhuman, incompassionate drug enforcement laws, I want to ask them if they know that the #1 predictor of drug abuse is child abuse, and that essentially what they're doing is the very worst form of blaming the victim. It's fucking sick.

"They knew it was illegal" is in the same category, for me, as "She was asking for it". Which is related, BTW, because the #1 predictor in victims of rape is ALSO CHILD ABUSE.

Some people need compassion and help, and dismissing it with "they knew it was illegal" is inhuman and worthy of nothing better than total contempt. It's a system that punishes the broken for their past miseries, and nothing more.

If you want to make a difference, work to end child abuse. Otherwise you're pissing in the wind.

Again with your selective reading.  I think I made it quite clear in a couple of posts that I believe that kids who get in trouble should get second chances.  However, the other thing I know quite clearly is that our young people also need to experience logical consequences of their behavior.  Otherwise they don't learn.  If there are no consequences for behavior, behavior doesn't change.  Does that mean you let them go completely and twist in the wind?  Of course not, otherwise substance abuse treatment wouldn't exist.  Courts wouldn't recommend substance abuse treatment instead of jail time.  Of course we give them second chances, and third chances.  

My point is that the youth still needs to bear some level of responsibility for the choices they make.  That is part of growing up and becoming an adult.  Please, pay better attention to what I actually post before you go off on your hyperbolic nonsense.  

[East Coast Hustle]

And by the way, that super-potent 18% THC weed they're growing down there? It still wouldn't be able to compete with the good hydroponically-grown weed here in the PNW, the best strains of which top out at around 25%.

I was gonna say that ...

Their quote about "a normal marijuana plant's two to seven percent" is ridiculous, that would be incredibly shitty weed.

I'd say 18% is not "super-potent", rather call it "decent quality".

... btw you don't really get much hashish over there do you?

Most of the hashish in the US is domestically produced using the ice method (bubble hash) and is typically more easily available to people who have direct access to growers and/or people who deal in large amounts as they're the ones who typically have enough waste product to make the hash-making process worth the trouble (and it is a HUGE pain in the balls). This generally yields a slightly lower quality product than the solvent method that is typically used to make the middle eastern hash that ends up in the European market.

Here in the US, it's generally bought as an occasional special treat rather than as a replacement for bud.

[Doktor Howl]

Again with your selective reading.  I think I made it quite clear in a couple of posts that I believe that kids who get in trouble should get second chances.  However, the other thing I know quite clearly is that our young people also need to experience logical consequences of their behavior.  Otherwise they don't learn.  If there are no consequences for behavior, behavior doesn't change.  

So what we're doing here is conditioning them to behave in a way that the rest of society feels is acceptable?

Am I tracking so far?

[AFK]

RWHN, I usually skip points that I have already seen adequately refuted.

Uh huh.  The point remains you are holding me to a different standard than other posters in this thread and I think it is plainly because you don't only disagree with me, you disagree with my on a level that for some reason is personal.  I mean, it's completely obvious you are trying to catch me in a "gotcha".  Which is why you are selectively reading.  

Law of Fives in full effect.  

[AFK]

Waittagoddamn minute....


RWHN, are you REALLY saying that you think it's fair or right that a kid with a pot conviction can never get any federal aid for higher education for the rest of their life?

How the fuck is that being pro-children?

No, I didn't say that.  I would hope that there could be some leniency, especially if it is just one incident that didn't involve violence or trafficking.  But at some point we have to take some responsibility for our actions.  

What if at some point we decide we want to stop being involved in that world and better our lives but we can't because the fucking feds won't give us a fucking cent for college because of a fucking posession charge?

You think that you personally HOPING for some leniency is a valid response to the question?

Well considering I have approximately zero input and influence in that area, it is the best I can do.  I don't work on federal policies, I work on state and local policies.  But sure, if I had the opportunity to speak or give my two cents on some kind of panel or study, or whatever regarding this I certainly would advocate that kids get second chances to have access to that funding.  Of course, I don't see that happening without some strings attached, such as some kind of reporting that verifies the kid is staying clean.  Especially if it is a situation where there is a lot of competition for those funds.  

However, at the same time, it would be important to educate kids, as we do, what ALL of the consequences of using and selling drugs are, including the impacts upon their future.  And this is actually something we do.  Reality is reality whether I agree with it 100% or not.  As successful as I've been in local settings, I obviously can't move mountains and I don't have any kind of sway at that level.  So, in the meantime, kids need to know the lay of the land and understand the consequences of the decisions they make today.  

That didn't answer my question.

As it sits right now, do you think it is either fair or just that someone with a small-time marijuana charge on their record is barred for life from receiving any federal financial aid for higher education?

If you DO think it's just, can you offer any reason why such a policy makes any sense at all?

Is it just?  Of course not, but it is reality.  So until we can get changes through the system, kids need to understand the playing field and then decide how they want to act. 

[East Coast Hustle]

I'd like to add another point about the "no financial aid" policy:

From a legal standpoint isn't that policy unconstitutional? Seems to me as though it violates double jeopardy. I mean, we've already decided as a society that we punish drug law violations with fines and/or jail time. IF someone is fined and/or jailed as a result of their drug conviction (this counts even if their sentence is suspended, since it's still imposed) and pays the fine/serves the time how is it justifiable to continue to punish them for the rest of their life?

[East Coast Hustle]

Waittagoddamn minute....


RWHN, are you REALLY saying that you think it's fair or right that a kid with a pot conviction can never get any federal aid for higher education for the rest of their life?

How the fuck is that being pro-children?

No, I didn't say that.  I would hope that there could be some leniency, especially if it is just one incident that didn't involve violence or trafficking.  But at some point we have to take some responsibility for our actions. 

What if at some point we decide we want to stop being involved in that world and better our lives but we can't because the fucking feds won't give us a fucking cent for college because of a fucking posession charge?

You think that you personally HOPING for some leniency is a valid response to the question?

Well considering I have approximately zero input and influence in that area, it is the best I can do.  I don't work on federal policies, I work on state and local policies.  But sure, if I had the opportunity to speak or give my two cents on some kind of panel or study, or whatever regarding this I certainly would advocate that kids get second chances to have access to that funding.  Of course, I don't see that happening without some strings attached, such as some kind of reporting that verifies the kid is staying clean.  Especially if it is a situation where there is a lot of competition for those funds. 

However, at the same time, it would be important to educate kids, as we do, what ALL of the consequences of using and selling drugs are, including the impacts upon their future.  And this is actually something we do.  Reality is reality whether I agree with it 100% or not.  As successful as I've been in local settings, I obviously can't move mountains and I don't have any kind of sway at that level.  So, in the meantime, kids need to know the lay of the land and understand the consequences of the decisions they make today. 

That didn't answer my question.

As it sits right now, do you think it is either fair or just that someone with a small-time marijuana charge on their record is barred for life from receiving any federal financial aid for higher education?

If you DO think it's just, can you offer any reason why such a policy makes any sense at all?

Is it just?  Of course not, but it is reality.  So until we can get changes through the system, kids need to understand the playing field and then decide how they want to act. 

I understand that. The way you phrased it earlier made it sound as though you agreed with the policy, and that actually bent my good nature back a bit.

Guess why ECH can't go to college? And in spite of my "colorful" past, the only drug charge on my record is for simple possession of marijuana. Not trafficking, not manufacturing...simple possession of 2 grams of pot. For which I was fined $2000 and given a (suspended) sentence of 6 months in jail.

But hey, I'm a dangerous guy, right? And imagine the kind of damage I could do to the community if I had an education!

[Triple Zero]

And by the way, that super-potent 18% THC weed they're growing down there? It still wouldn't be able to compete with the good hydroponically-grown weed here in the PNW, the best strains of which top out at around 25%.

I was gonna say that ...

Their quote about "a normal marijuana plant's two to seven percent" is ridiculous, that would be incredibly shitty weed.

I'd say 18% is not "super-potent", rather call it "decent quality".

... btw you don't really get much hashish over there do you?

Most of the hashish in the US is domestically produced using the ice method (bubble hash) and is typically more easily available to people who have direct access to growers and/or people who deal in large amounts as they're the ones who typically have enough waste product to make the hash-making process worth the trouble (and it is a HUGE pain in the balls). This generally yields a slightly lower quality product than the solvent method that is typically used to make the middle eastern hash that ends up in the European market.

Here in the US, it's generally bought as an occasional special treat rather than as a replacement for bud.

I prefer the flavour to weed. According to the Dutch wikipedia, ice/bubble hash is actually supposed to be pretty high quality. I'm not sure how the maroc hash--the kind I usually get--is made, something with sieves and tumblers and shit.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

RWHN, I usually skip points that I have already seen adequately refuted.

Uh huh.  The point remains you are holding me to a different standard than other posters in this thread and I think it is plainly because you don't only disagree with me, you disagree with my on a level that for some reason is personal.  I mean, it's completely obvious you are trying to catch me in a "gotcha".  Which is why you are selectively reading.  

Law of Fives in full effect.  

Nope. The reason is that there are a ton of other people in this thread refuting your points fairly exhaustively and only one person defending them, and I don't see the need to keep covering points others already have.

But that was a good stab at mind-reading I guess.

Honestly, outside of this one topic, and the punning, I like you. But you're like an eel on this one topic, and when you can't defend a point, you either invent a strawman to tear apart or simply evade it and it gets old.

[Doktor Howl]

Again with your selective reading.  I think I made it quite clear in a couple of posts that I believe that kids who get in trouble should get second chances.  However, the other thing I know quite clearly is that our young people also need to experience logical consequences of their behavior.  Otherwise they don't learn.  If there are no consequences for behavior, behavior doesn't change.  

So what we're doing here is conditioning them to behave in a way that the rest of society feels is acceptable?

Am I tracking so far?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I keep trying to bite my tongue but I'm giving it the fuck up.

Every time I see someone trot out the "they knew it was illegal" defense of the absolutely idiotic, inhuman, incompassionate drug enforcement laws, I want to ask them if they know that the #1 predictor of drug abuse is child abuse, and that essentially what they're doing is the very worst form of blaming the victim. It's fucking sick.

"They knew it was illegal" is in the same category, for me, as "She was asking for it". Which is related, BTW, because the #1 predictor in victims of rape is ALSO CHILD ABUSE.

Some people need compassion and help, and dismissing it with "they knew it was illegal" is inhuman and worthy of nothing better than total contempt. It's a system that punishes the broken for their past miseries, and nothing more.

If you want to make a difference, work to end child abuse. Otherwise you're pissing in the wind.

Again with your selective reading.  I think I made it quite clear in a couple of posts that I believe that kids who get in trouble should get second chances.  However, the other thing I know quite clearly is that our young people also need to experience logical consequences of their behavior.  Otherwise they don't learn.  If there are no consequences for behavior, behavior doesn't change.  Does that mean you let them go completely and twist in the wind?  Of course not, otherwise substance abuse treatment wouldn't exist.  Courts wouldn't recommend substance abuse treatment instead of jail time.  Of course we give them second chances, and third chances.  

My point is that the youth still needs to bear some level of responsibility for the choices they make.  That is part of growing up and becoming an adult.  Please, pay better attention to what I actually post before you go off on your hyperbolic nonsense.  

Since that wasn't a direct response to a particular post but a general rant, I have no idea where you pulled the "selective reading" argument except out of your ass.

And I stand by my opinion, too. Punishing people for drug addiction is ass-backward caveman behavior, AT BEST. As far as I'm concerned it's in the same category as stoning rape victims, and people who advocate it are the face of evil.

[AFK]

Again with your selective reading.  I think I made it quite clear in a couple of posts that I believe that kids who get in trouble should get second chances.  However, the other thing I know quite clearly is that our young people also need to experience logical consequences of their behavior.  Otherwise they don't learn.  If there are no consequences for behavior, behavior doesn't change.  

So what we're doing here is conditioning them to behave in a way that the rest of society feels is acceptable?

Am I tracking so far?

No.  What I'm saying that until things are different kids need to be educated on what is.  Education is important, and like it or not, there are certain rules that are in place for financial aid.  Are they too draconian?  Sure.  But they aren't going to change overnight.  They just aren't.  So kids need to decide what is more important and make decisions accordingly.  If using pot or other drugs is THAT important, than they need to understand they are taking on certain risks for their future, health being a primary and educational opportunities being another.