Levi

[chaosgraves:agentoferis]

oh yes... bush's oil war. this is what it is.

[Slarti]

i sense bitter sarcasm. what do YOU  think it is?

[chaosgraves:agentoferis]

i sense bitter sarcasm. what do YOU  think it is?

if you are talking to me on that you need to go get your sarcasm detector fixed... if you were not I appologize for butting in where I don't belong and will try not to do so in the future.


blessed be.

[Slarti]

lol i guess i need my sarcasm detector fixed, i thought you were bitterly disagreeing with me, sorry. *handshake*

[chaosgraves:agentoferis]

there is an oil war people do not be foolled... this is not a religios war in bush's eyes.

[Slarti]

jolly good.

[Trollax]

It seems weird to offer condolences for something he willingly agreed to... but still- good luck to him.

it's because they sucker these kids in, they're poor and they have few prospects. They get sold the military like it's going to help them fix their lives quickly and easily... And like medieval times it is of course the poorest plebs who get sent in first. Joining the military is fine, but unless you're a senator's son, you're worm food in fatigues in time of war.

[Horab Fibslager]

It seems weird to offer condolences for something he willingly agreed to... but still- good luck to him.

it's because they sucker these kids in, they're poor and they have few prospects. They get sold the military like it's going to help them fix their lives quickly and easily... And like medieval times it is of course the poorest plebs who get sent in first. Joining the military is fine, but unless you're a senator's son, you're worm food in fatigues in time of war.

yes. what the recruiter says and what's on the paper are more often than not two different things.

btu i say, isn;t being trained in the abiltiy to kill a man worth the chance of dying?

does anyone remeber when jimmy franks said we woudl not be deciding how effective this war is by body count(like in vietnam)?)

[Lord Trout]

I agree, this is a war for oil, but it is also a religious war. Just ask the millions of pissed off Muslims in the Middle East. For them, Bush's war is no different than the fucking Crusades. It is also religious for the crowds of fanatical, end-time-lovin' Christian followers of Bush.

Regardless, war is war, regardless of the reasons behind it... what can't be disputed is that the empoverished do the dying while the rich go skiing in Aspen.

Fuckers.

[chaosgraves:agentoferis]

I agree, this is a war for oil, but it is also a religious war. Just ask the millions of pissed off Muslims in the Middle East. For them, Bush's war is no different than the fucking Crusades. It is also religious for the crowds of fanatical, end-time-lovin' Christian followers of Bush.

Regardless, war is war, regardless of the reasons behind it... what can't be disputed is that the empoverished do the dying while the rich go skiing in Aspen.

Fuckers.

Bush Does not see it as a holy war is all I'm saying... and I'm sorry as I christian I don't believe in holy war... If god was so fired up to have something done about it it would be done, no reason to go to war.

[Hwarang]

it's because they sucker these kids in, they're poor and they have few prospects. They get sold the military like it's going to help them fix their lives quickly and easily... And like medieval times it is of course the poorest plebs who get sent in first. Joining the military is fine, but unless you're a senator's son, you're worm food in fatigues in time of war.

Yes that's true, they do indeed, and it's pretty gross. But personal responsibility trumps all things. Young Levi should have investigated this very serious agreement he was about to make prior to signing.

Now I don't wanna spur an argument about Levi or whatever. I meant it when I said good luck to him.

And now we return to your "religious war vs oil war" debate.

...Is an oil war so wrong? I mean, it's obviously a moral trespass. There's no disagreement from me there. But when you look around the world, through the history of our planet and evolution of not just our species, but all species ... you can see a few things

1. All life is in competition. Most of it is very violent.
2. Stagnant lifeforms or societies die quickly.
3. Entire races have been wiped out and we view it merely as history. I draw your attention to Homo sapiens vs. Homo neanderthalensis ... archaeological records indicate that Homo sapiens committed genocide.

So perhaps we could view this (war of conquest) as a natural behavior of a species of our planet. That actually grants me a little peace of mind, in a weird sort of way. Just glad I'm on the winning side. . . though I could respect our leaders more if they were honest about the reason why. Just say it. "Hey we want this." ...

[gnimbley]

The problem with this war as an oil war is that it was unnecessary.

The argument is that the flow of oil had to be maintained because
Western economies are dependent on oil. Shut off the oil and they will
collapse like they did in the thirties. Once they have collapsed,
populations will turn to draconian dictators like Germany did to Hitler to
restore "the natural order of things." In order to do that, there will have
to be a war. And that war will be nuclear.

Ergo, if the oil stops, the balloon goes up and we all die.

The problem with this argument is that it is based on Saddam having
WMD. If Saddam were to have been in the position where he was not
scared of the US, then he probably would have tried to take over Kuwait
and Saudi Arabia and the rest of the western shore of the Gulf. (This time
he wouldn't have stopped at the Saudi border.)

Saddam didn't have WMD. He wasn't in a position to stop the flow of oil.
So we stopped him from doing something he wasn't going to do.

Now, however, we are in Iraq, and Iraq is in turmoil. We can not just up
and leave, because it would collapse and that could spread south. If it
spreads south, then the flow of oil stops, yada yada yada.

So we have to stay. But staying just increases the hostility towards the
US. And as the hostility increases, the possibility of the area collapsing
anyway also increases. So we have to get more oppressive to keep the
lid on (the Israeli option), which just increases the pressure for the lid to
blow, yada yada yada.

Between a rock and a hard place. Which is why Kerry and some others
say we have to convince Europe to send in troops, but they don't want to
send in troops because in the short term it means they are going to be
the target of hostility and they think they can scoot by without having
to pay, so, yada yada yada.

Anybody got a good fallout shelter?

(Of course, I am just a worrisome gnome. Don't pay any attention to me.
I worry about stuff like Michael Jackson's DNA, so how bad could it be?
Really?)

[fluffy]

gnomes are so full of shit

[Lord Trout]

But personal responsibility trumps all things. Young Levi should have investigated this very serious agreement he was about to make prior to signing.

Very true, that's why the first words out of my mouth when I heard about his signing up were "What the fuck is that kid thinking?!?", followed shortly by "You stupid motherfucker, just where do you think they need Combat Engineers the most? Germany? I think not..."

While personal responsibility is very important, in my opinion, this was a empoverished kid that was duped by a Recruiter into signing his life away. Four years for just over $30,000 for college. If he's lucky, that'll pay for four years of schooling, assuming he returns alive and able to use those benefits. Then again, it will be at a Trade school or Community College, not a University as Levi hoped to attend. Hell, $30,000 won't even pay for two years a a decent University anymore!

So there's the rub. He signed up to better his life, based on a lie, and when he gets back he will still be condemned to the same crappy life that he left. Sure, the Government promises to send him to college, but with the loans he'll need to complete a real degree, he'll be worse off when he graduates than he currently is. Then he'll be saddledd with thousands in student loans, joining an economy that (under Bush) has seen over a million jobs just vanish in the last three years.

Good luck paying off those loans then. Thus, Kerry (for all his faults) MUST be elected this time!

[Hwarang]

gnomes are so full of shit

Gnot the ones at Gmurrginn's Gnomes (Gmorning!)

Ted L nancy, anyone?