Doubts about my future profession - Please Input

[Triple Zero]

There are still therapists that use Rorschach cards???

[Requia ☣]

Well, somebody was pressuring Wikipedia not to publish the real cards on the grounds that people who have seen the cards can't be tested with them, presumably whoever was doing that had a reason.

[Roaring Biscuit!]

APA ETHICAL PRINCIPLES OF PSYCHOLOGISTS AND CODE OF CONDUCT

http://www.apa.org/ethics/code.html

http://www.apa.org/ethics/code.html#2.07

2.07 Obsolete Tests and Outdated Test Results.

(a) Psychologists do not base their assessment or intervention decisions or recommendations on data or test results that are outdated for the current purpose.

(b) Similarly, psychologists do not base such decisions or recommendations on tests and measures that are obsolete and not useful for the current purpose.

Also, you can see the Rorschach cards right here, as well as a lot of info on the problems with it.

[Jasper]

There are still therapists that use Rorschach cards???

Thematic apperception tests are IMO a more useful tool, but yes.  The point is just to get you talking about what's on your mind.  It's just a way to see where your imagination takes you.  Any other use is questionable, I think.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Objective study of mind is impossible under modern technological limitations. You want to learn anything about psychology then, by all means read some Freud, read some Jung, fuck read some Castaneda or Timothy Leary you might end up with the kind of half-assed impression that the greatest shrinks of the day aspire to. Solution is simple - you have a fully observable test mind at your disposal - go experiment on it. Mental process is something you have to experience first hand but be warned (omgz quantums) the observer will affect the results

[Requia ☣]

Objective study of mind is impossible under modern technological limitations. You want to learn anything about psychology then, by all means read some Freud, read some Jung, fuck read some Castaneda or Timothy Leary you might end up with the kind of half-assed impression that the greatest shrinks of the day aspire to. Solution is simple - you have a fully observable test mind at your disposal - go experiment on it. Mental process is something you have to experience first hand but be warned (omgz quantums) the observer will affect the results

If you want to learn something about Psychology, those are some key people to completely ignore.  As for the observer affecting the results bit, that's what double blind studies and control groups are for.

[The Johnny]

I cant find my notes nor textbooks, but if i recall correctly, there were studies made with a number of children that had already been diagnosed and subsequently the features in the drawings they made were correlated with their personality. But this is mostly speaking of HTP and Human Figure.
Now, Family Drawing is more complex, because it not only takes into account what the features each character represents, but also the portrayal of each member, its positioning (or lack of prescense). Even though the subject is told to draw an imaginary one, its usual that they will draw their own family. Basicly the interpretation comes from the features, which comes from correlation thru different cases, and the positionings are taken as symbolical and non-random.

For example, assuming its a four member family, consisting of mother, father, daughter and a younger brother; the test is applied to the daughter, which proceeds to only draw her parents and herself, symbolically it expresses the desire to supress her brother; why does she wish to supress her brother? it would need to be taken in the context of other available data, but a possible explanation would be envy of the attention the newborn draws instead of herself.

Ok, but why does it mean that she wishes to suppress her brother?
In the human drawing one, or the ink blot test (which I'm a bit more familiar with), you can draw validity, (though not reliability) because you can diagnose those disorders, then compare the disorders to the results, and use that to build a database of drawings or answers or whatever and link it to the disorders.  (IE, if 70% of the people who see a certain inkblot and answer butterfly have narcissistic tendencies, and your patient answers butterfly, you know to do more thorough tests for narcissistic tendencies, though you can't simply conclude that the patient has that).
But in family drawing, there's no diagnosis for the little girl wishing to suppress her brother, no database of 'this drawing was by a person with the following issues', the test was made up, it wasn't drawn from thin air, so it might be correct, but you have no way of knowing if it is correct or not.

-Why is the insult "Fuck your mother" a global phenomenon?
-Why does the imagining of one's own parents having intercourse evoke disgust?
-What is so tragic about the myth of Oedipus?

Why is this relevant?

Because it's a symbolical expression of a desire; there is also cases of devaluation with drawing a sibling with defects or ugly features.
Yes, exactly, as ive said, it's a tool, an aide for diagnosis, but its not 100% reliable, it must be taken in the context of other data. Also, if the rapport isn't done appropriately, the results can be completely off, also if the person is under stress or if its forced to do it.

Yes, I know what you speak of about Family Drawing, there isn't a database; but I ask you, which other interpretations can you draw from such an important omission in the drawing? In this specific case I made up its what I would consider a very straight forward meaning, but its not always that easy or obvious.

Those questions are relevant as examples of common remnants of the Oedipus complex, Im sorry, i guess it was too much of an ambiguous postulation.

Allow me to catch up with other responses to adress this part more in depth.

[The Johnny]

And here's where there is a stumble in the conversations, I know there is no physical manner to show that an Oedipus Complex, for example, exists, for it is a symbolical working of the mind, and not a physical one and although it is not a simple thing, I would like to try my hand at showing why I think its true (I just need some time to think how I would proceed with it); or some concept in the same branch of things, I have several works that ive done, including hypothesis, methodology and the likes, and just to bring a concrete example so as to be dissected in its flaws id be willing to translate it.

There's lots of psychology out there that isn't based in the physical workings of the brain.  Nothing about Bias research is based in neurology, but I can still say the Ball and Bat Bias exists, because no matter how many times the experiment gets run, people get the problem wrong.  You can give a lot of reasons why the Oedipal stage is true, but how do you run an experiment to demonstrate it isn't false?   And don't give me any vague statements, if you don't know where it comes from, and you don't know how to find out where it comes from, then how did you decide it was correct?

Ball and Bat bias, I couldn't find anything that seemed relevant, can you explain?
The Oedipus complex theory is based on the symbolic content of myths of antiquity and its interpretation, its also based on observation of child-mother-father interaction, cultural taboo and the content of deep interviews – other than that, im not sure how an experiment would be run to demonstrate it.

The Oedipus complex comes from the transition from an instinct based stage of mankind towards a stage of mankind that it was capable of repression/sublimation in order to reap benefits (a.k.a. culture). Rather than groups living under an alpha-male with complete control, with the cyclical switches in power when one grew too old and a successor arrived based solely on violence, at some point, power was distributed, but the incest taboo was created along with exogamy. This is referenced in Levi-Strauss's "Nature and Culture" (if I recall correctly) and S. Freud's "Totem and Taboo".

[The Johnny]

-Why is the insult "Fuck your mother" a global phenomenon?

It's not. We don't use that insult in Dutch.

(With the exception of doing an ironically bad literal translation of US pop-culture/movie phrases, which is mainly used for the irony of cheese rather than meaning what is actually being said)

That is strange indeed, it seems to be a common phenomenon in english and spanish speaking countries. I wonder if its linked to something of greater importance.

[Triple Zero]

There are still therapists that use Rorschach cards???

Thematic apperception tests are IMO a more useful tool, but yes.  The point is just to get you talking about what's on your mind.  It's just a way to see where your imagination takes you.  Any other use is questionable, I think.

I know what they are used for, and intended for.

I was mostly wondering if there are qualified therapists that still actually use this method.

[The Johnny]

Projective testing, only an abstract mind
"Nobody agrees how to score Rorschach responses objectively. There is nothing to show what any particular response means to the person who gives it. And, there is nothing to show what it means if a number of people give the same response. The ink blots are scientifically useless." (Bartol, 1983).

"The only thing the inkblots do reveal is the secret world of the examiner who interprets them. These doctors are probably saying more about themselves than about the subjects." (Anastasi, 1982).

also,  some more detail on issues with projective testing
I couldn't find the stuff on Freudian analysis, but if you want a comprehensive read on the issues of Freudian theory I can recommend Hans Eysenck's "The Decline and Fall of the Freudian Empire".

As for that there definition, well you've kind of proved my point there, as there are two seperate definitions quoted right there, and reading Freud you may notice that his use of libido is a linguistic use not a scientific.  Is the definition you quoted now the standardised definition?

Thirdly, if this is the line of work you really want to follow, check yourself out some George Kelly, his testing methods try to minimise the effect of therapist interpretation.
x
edd

Only the abstract is free. I haven't been taught how to utilize Rorschach, but it seems to be more related to the free association type, because the subject is just expressing passively what an image evokes, rather than actively creating an image themselves. Id be more interested in knowing what the article has to say about HTP, Human Figure and Family Drawing, because those are the ones I closely know of and is related to what we speak of.

And which are these doctors the article speaks of? Psychiatrists? General Practitioners? Psycho-analysts? Therapists? Psychologists? I would venture to say that not everyone has the appropriate training to use them.

We all know that anything within the setting of court is very much cutthroat and with vested interests. It speaks volumes of the bad uses of projective tests in a particular setting, but not its overall benefits.
Once more: using a single application of HTP or any similar tool as a sole guidance for diagnosis is jumping to conclusions.

[The Johnny]

-What is so tragic about the myth of Oedipus?

his children are likely to have serious genetic defects?

There are some pretty good evolutionary reasons for children to not be sexually attracted to their parents...

That can fall under the heading of biological reductionism.

[The Johnny]

GA,
As i previously asked to someone else ITT (to which they didnt respond):
-Why is the insult "Fuck your mother" a global phenomenon?
-Why does the imagining of one's own parents having intercourse evoke disgust?
-What is so tragic about the myth of Oedipus?

"Fuck your mother" - I'm not sure that it is a global phenomena.  But if you were making the claim that "fuck your mother" is evidence for the psychoanalytic view, then you'd also need to show that past societies used the same insult (either that, or past societies didn't have a mother complex.)

"Parent's intercourse evoke disgust" - Neither of my parents are particularly sexually attractive, and the combination of modern porn culture and American crypto-puritanism has conditioned me to view any sex between less than movie starlet quality couples is gross.  I find the idea of most of my professors having sex to be a bit discomforting, and I only met them within the past few years.  I've also found (only within instrospective psych, although I think other experiments have/would bear this out) that imagining specific kinds of sexual situations changes your own sexual appetites and relationship to the subjects.  So I don't imagine my classmates in sexually provocative positions because I don't want to change the way I think about them as human beings.

"Oedipus tragedy" - I haven't read any of the epics about Oedipus, but I suspect that the tragedy comes from a combination of quality literature and "Guy does things the Gods do not approve of, gets ass handed to him in divine retribution as moralistic tale for audience."

Touché. Im not a historical linguist, unfortunately. Adds up with Trip's objection.
Ive known quite a number of people with attractive parents which were teased about it, so I wouldn't think it's a matter of attractiveness. Its an interesting cultural argument what you came up with. The last sentence in the second paragraph sounds a bit odd to me, just saying.

The tragedy of Oedipus symbolically speaking is tragic because it illustrates how all humans have an infatuation with the mother, along with ambiguous feelings towards the father, which if they aren't resolved throught identification rather than with violent competition it would be the end of/is incompatible with culture.

[The Johnny]

It's not. We don't use that insult in Dutch.

I have to ask then, what's the rudest Dutch insult, or is it one of those funny things that will not translate well?

We generally curse with diseases.

Tering = TBC
Tiefus = Typhoid
Klere / Kolere = Cholera
(these are all slang words, the actual diseases are named tuberculose, tyfus and cholera)

While those are pretty harsh language, depending on who you are with they can also be rather mild and used as random expletives.

But probably the worst one is "krijg kanker", meaning "get cancer", or variations thereupon. The former diseases are quite uncommon and treatable, while there's a pretty good chance that a person has lost a family member or close friend to cancer. So that usually gets them. It's also the reason why I don't use that one. IMO it's either bad taste or if the person really deserves it, I can probably come up with something stronger and more relevant.

Ooh, I just remember another one. "Schurft" means "Scabies". Often used in combination with "hekel" (dislike) into "schurfthekel". To mean you really hate something (or someone). The nice thing about this one is that it sounds like clearing your throat and you can really spit it out. (schurft sounds like "skurft" except with the Dutch throat-clearing "g" sound instead of a "k")

Is it like Yiddish where you form entire curse sentences like "May you get raped by a goat and all your teeth fall out" ? 

[The Johnny]

Its not all about childhood sexual identity, its about if there was a healthy passage thru the different stages of development, which ideally is done with at 19ish while not disregarding influential events that could have happened later on.

And you see, theres something weird with your discourse at the end, why bring up sex-life of an eight year old at all?

As I understand it, psychoanalysis traces the roots of present-day disorders back to people's failures to progress "normally" through the hoops of development as laid out by Freud and others.  But suppose psychoanalysis, while being correct about the influence of development in people's future lives, got the precise stages of development that people are supposed to go through wrong.  (Considering how much we've revised the work of greats like Newton, Piaget, and Darwin it would seem incredible that a field would get everything very nearly correct on the first go-round.)

There would be no way to tell - psychoanalysts would of course find that their patients didn't go through all the stages properly and diagnose them with disorders.  The fact that the patients only didn't go through the stages properly because the stages themselves are flawed could only be discovered if a) there really are neurotypical people b) those actual neurotypical people go to see a psychoanalyst and c) the psychoanalyst correctly identifies them as not having any disorders and doesn't attribute this them repressing their disorders or whatever.  Which means that psychoanalysis as a field has no good way of correcting its errors, and so we should expect all the inevitable errors made over the years to still be there.

I cant find my notes nor textbooks, but if i recall correctly, there were studies made with a number of children that had already been diagnosed and subsequently the features in the drawings they made were correlated with their personality. But this is mostly speaking of HTP and Human Figure.

Well there's your problem right there.  Double blind studies need to be done with a mix of healthy children and diagnosed ones.  Because if the healthy children put the same kinds of features in their drawings, then the drawings are diagnostically useless.

Yes, it's about going thru development phases "healthily" but it speaks of the libidinal side of development. A good complimentary set of development phases are cognitive development ones.

The problem with this you speak of, is that it's a big assumption. There are characteristics that denounce pathology in each phase, which is distinct from problems with other phases. And now im a bit confused... that's autism movement lingo for "normal people" right? And responding that, yes, of course not everyone is autistic – why do you take that angle? And correcting you, one doesn't repress a disorder, one represses emotions and thoughts.

One very common problem nowadays is througouth the latency phase (5.5-12), in which children sublimate their libidinal energy towards learning and learning to control their impulses; the cause to the pathology is their exposure to mediatic sexuality and violence, which distracts their focus from learning; symptoms? thrill seekers, bad academics and agression. This is culturally speaking, individual cases might vary.