CHANGE!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

How can this be true when neither party has had a real chance to instill what their core standings call for?  We can never predict exactly how an economy will react under specific direction without seeing it first-hand. 

We've seen the Libertarians first hand.  1865-1910...A real paradise for the working class.  Is 45 years not a good enough test?

And have you READ the Green's platform?

The economy was completely different.  I would have to see it in a more modern situation.
Bits and pieces, I don't directly understand how it would take away hope for jobs.

The economy was completely different because it was unregulated.  We recently tried lifting those regulations (1995) with respect to finances, and you can see the result.  Lifting them MORE won't help, and the Libertarians/Teabaggers also want to repeal the labor side of things.

The result would be the same as 1865-1910, because human nature hasn't changed, nor is it expected to anytime soon.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

3 wars, or stimulus package.  And various other extreme spending.  Neither grab me and swing me to their side because they're both so undesirable.

1.  The stimulus package started under the GOP, and

2.  Which is more important?  Are soldiers of no value, just cogs in a machine?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

These are rhetorical questions, of course.

Your avatar shows that you're partisan.

[Death]

3 wars, or stimulus package.  And various other extreme spending.  Neither grab me and swing me to their side because they're both so undesirable.

1.  The stimulus package started under the GOP, and

2.  Which is more important?  Are soldiers of no value, just cogs in a machine?

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing.  I don't like war, or even bulky military. 

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

[Death]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

WE have no say in it.  THEY are going to do what THEY want to do.  If some 18 year old boy has a fantasy about being a Marine Patriot yadda yadda I'm not going to tell him he can't.  I'll shake my head when something goes wrong, but I'm not responsible for him.  Government spending on military is pathetic, but spending in LOTS of aspects is.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

WE have no say in it.  THEY are going to do what THEY want to do.  If some 18 year old boy has a fantasy about being a Marine Patriot yadda yadda I'm not going to tell him he can't.  I'll shake my head when something goes wrong, but I'm not responsible for him.  Government spending on military is pathetic, but spending in LOTS of aspects is.

Well, then, stop pretending to be a citizen.

TGRR,
Coincidentally has a 17 son who is a Marine recruit, and thinks you aren't capable of being responsible for him.

[Death]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

WE have no say in it.  THEY are going to do what THEY want to do.  If some 18 year old boy has a fantasy about being a Marine Patriot yadda yadda I'm not going to tell him he can't.  I'll shake my head when something goes wrong, but I'm not responsible for him.  Government spending on military is pathetic, but spending in LOTS of aspects is.

Well, then, stop pretending to be a citizen.

TGRR,
Coincidentally has a 17 son who is a Marine recruit, and thinks you aren't capable of being responsible for him.

He's responsible for himself, was what I was originally getting at.

[Phox]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

WE have no say in it.  THEY are going to do what THEY want to do.  If some 18 year old boy has a fantasy about being a Marine Patriot yadda yadda I'm not going to tell him he can't.  I'll shake my head when something goes wrong, but I'm not responsible for him.  Government spending on military is pathetic, but spending in LOTS of aspects is.

Well, then, stop pretending to be a citizen.

TGRR,
Coincidentally has a 17 son who is a Marine recruit, and thinks you aren't capable of being responsible for him.

Roger doesn't pull any punches. Shoulda warned you about that. Also, ECH and Subetai are straight shooters too. Now back to my pop-corn.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

WE have no say in it.  THEY are going to do what THEY want to do.  If some 18 year old boy has a fantasy about being a Marine Patriot yadda yadda I'm not going to tell him he can't.  I'll shake my head when something goes wrong, but I'm not responsible for him.  Government spending on military is pathetic, but spending in LOTS of aspects is.

Well, then, stop pretending to be a citizen.

TGRR,
Coincidentally has a 17 son who is a Marine recruit, and thinks you aren't capable of being responsible for him.

He's responsible for himself, was what I was originally getting at.

Of course he is.  And we The People are responsible for how he and his friends are used.  If you aren't prepared for that responsibility, then you aren't prepared to be a citizen of a republic.  The present oligarchy is where you belong.

However, the statement that "they volunteered" indicates that they are, in fact, worth less than your money.

Hardly a shock...My family has been military since the late 1800s, and most people have always felt that way, especially the ones that wrap themselves in the flag in other respects. 

[Rumckle]

Roger doesn't pull any punches. Shoulda warned you about that. Also, ECH and Subetai are straight shooters too. Now back to my pop-corn.

You need invite more friends here Phox, this one is hilarious.

[Phox]

Roger doesn't pull any punches. Shoulda warned you about that. Also, ECH and Subetai are straight shooters too. Now back to my pop-corn.

You need invite more friends here Phox, this one is hilarious.

I'm working on it. 

[Death]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

WE have no say in it.  THEY are going to do what THEY want to do.  If some 18 year old boy has a fantasy about being a Marine Patriot yadda yadda I'm not going to tell him he can't.  I'll shake my head when something goes wrong, but I'm not responsible for him.  Government spending on military is pathetic, but spending in LOTS of aspects is.

Well, then, stop pretending to be a citizen.

TGRR,
Coincidentally has a 17 son who is a Marine recruit, and thinks you aren't capable of being responsible for him.

He's responsible for himself, was what I was originally getting at.

Of course he is.  And we The People are responsible for how he and his friends are used.  If you aren't prepared for that responsibility, then you aren't prepared to be a citizen of a republic.  The present oligarchy is where you belong.

However, the statement that "they volunteered" indicates that they are, in fact, worth less than your money.

Hardly a shock...My family has been military since the late 1800s, and most people have always felt that way, especially the ones that wrap themselves in the flag in other respects. 

He's not an object for us to use, he's in charge of whatever the hell he wants to do.  He does what he wants and if it betters our country in some way then cool beans.
It's not exactly volunteering, and I never said it was.  I said they go in on their own choosing.  Many people go in for the money and the security, my best friend is.  I was going to because I can't afford college, but I really don't like the idea of being in the military.  There are a lot of people my age that are going in, have been in, or have older siblings who are.  I'm not exactly insensitive to the situation.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Roger doesn't pull any punches. Shoulda warned you about that. Also, ECH and Subetai are straight shooters too. Now back to my pop-corn.

You need invite more friends here Phox, this one is hilarious.

Now, now.  She's new, and so far she has restrained herself from dragging politics out of this subforum.  Be nice.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

He's not an object for us to use, he's in charge of whatever the hell he wants to do.  He does what he wants and if it betters our country in some way then cool beans.

  <--- Not laughing at you, laughing at the idea.

I served for 10 years, and I never once did anything that bettered our country (I made some businessmen happy, though).  My son has no illusions, either.  That in itself should be plenty of evidence that the military understands their real role.

But here's the deal:  If you abdicate your responsibilities - such as sounding off when the military is used improperly, for example, or showing up for jury duty - then you've abdicated your rights as well.

Read this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

Especially this part:

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

His book "War is a Racket" is one of the most important books of the 20th century:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

Bear in mind that this is one of the most highly decorated Marines in US History.