CHANGE!

[Death]

Roger doesn't pull any punches. Shoulda warned you about that. Also, ECH and Subetai are straight shooters too. Now back to my pop-corn.

You need invite more friends here Phox, this one is hilarious.

Now, now.  She's new, and so far she has restrained herself from dragging politics out of this subforum.  Be nice.

I don't want to cause problems and I don't want to offend anyone.  I may have different ideals but I'm not stupid.  Ignorant, of course, but please don't discredit me before you know me a little better.

[Don Coyote]

We are and we aren't in control of our lives. Once we sign on the dotted line, raise our right hand and say the Oath, we lost a great deal of our own self-determination. If I, or anyother service member, is told to do something that is neither immoral or illegal we HAVE to do it. Sure we can say no, but we get all kinds of fun consequences. And not to get all high and mighty, as I am but a lowly logistics clerk, but unless you are willing to secede that much control over your life then kindly shut it as far those of who serve are concerned. We are public servants. We get paid by the federal government, even the National Guard gets federal money when deployed or doing any federal level training. YOU are OUR bosses as it is YOUR taxes that pays OUR check. We are responsible because we voted in the Commander-in-Chief who is nominally in charge of entire Department of Defense. He is your employee too.


And what Roger said too.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Roger doesn't pull any punches. Shoulda warned you about that. Also, ECH and Subetai are straight shooters too. Now back to my pop-corn.

You need invite more friends here Phox, this one is hilarious.

Now, now.  She's new, and so far she has restrained herself from dragging politics out of this subforum.  Be nice.

I don't want to cause problems and I don't want to offend anyone.  I may have different ideals but I'm not stupid.  Ignorant, of course, but please don't discredit me before you know me a little better.

Who's discrediting you?

[Death]

Roger doesn't pull any punches. Shoulda warned you about that. Also, ECH and Subetai are straight shooters too. Now back to my pop-corn.

You need invite more friends here Phox, this one is hilarious.

Now, now.  She's new, and so far she has restrained herself from dragging politics out of this subforum.  Be nice.

I don't want to cause problems and I don't want to offend anyone.  I may have different ideals but I'm not stupid.  Ignorant, of course, but please don't discredit me before you know me a little better.

Who's discrediting you?

Rumckle.

[Rumckle]

I don't want to cause problems and I don't want to offend anyone.  I may have different ideals but I'm not stupid.  Ignorant, of course, but please don't discredit me before you know me a little better.

Who's discrediting you?

Rumckle.

Oh, sorry, I  wasn't sure if you were adressing TGRR or me.

I wasn't trying to discredit you, I was merely noting that from my perspective your conversation with TGRR was pretty funny.

Anyway, I'm judging/discrediting you any more than anyone else whose political opinions I slightly disagree with.



Also, I wouldn't really call it discrediting, because no one here (quite rightly) pays much attention to my opinion on US politics.

[LMNO]

The way I see it, in a Republic we vote for candidates who decide whether to put volunteers in harm's way.

So the voters are responsible for what happens to the soldiers.  And the soldiers, who voluntarily choose to enter a system of hierarchical obedience, should demand that we shoulder that responsibility, as free citizens.  They need to trust that if asked to risk their lives, the people they volunteered to protect actually give a shit and are paying attention.



Yes, this isn't very close to what's really going on.  But if you can be idealistically naive about people's choices, I can be idealistic about what a citizen's responsibility should be.

[Requia ☣]

He's not an object for us to use, he's in charge of whatever the hell he wants to do.  He does what he wants and if it betters our country in some way then cool beans.

  <--- Not laughing at you, laughing at the idea.

I served for 10 years, and I never once did anything that bettered our country (I made some businessmen happy, though).  My son has no illusions, either.  That in itself should be plenty of evidence that the military understands their real role.

But here's the deal:  If you abdicate your responsibilities - such as sounding off when the military is used improperly, for example, or showing up for jury duty - then you've abdicated your rights as well.

Read this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

Especially this part:

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

His book "War is a Racket" is one of the most important books of the 20th century:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

Bear in mind that this is one of the most highly decorated Marines in US History.

This book is awesome.  I think I'll be quoting from it, a lot, elsewhere on the net.

[Cain]

I wish people would've seen him as the stinknut he was bad in 08.  He's from Chicago, come on.  I don't even see how the fuck can anyone feel comfortable in trusting either R's or D's anymore anyway.

1. Two party system means exactly that.
2. I'm not entirely sure that the folks here understand Chicago politics in the way we do. 

1.  Duverger's Law means that a 2 party system is all you'll ever have.

2.  HAR!  I spent more time in Chicago than you have on the planet.  I made a comment about Obama back in the day, something about never trusting a Chicago politician and most especially never trusting a Chicago politician that looks clean, but I'm too lazy to go look for it.  In any case, you aren't old enough to understand Chicago politics properly.

I wasn't referring to you, Roger, though I can see why you might take it that way. You, Cain, and ECH are the only people here who I would imagine have an inkling of Chicago politics, no offense to anyone else. But you are right, Chicago politics take decades to understand properly.

I would've said Chicago politics was the perfect training ground for Presidential politics.

Uh, I mean, perish the thought that the election which decides who will be the leader of the world's largest military and economic power, setting policy for the next four to eight years, would be in any way a corrupt contest in which vested interests will go to any lengths to ensure their preferred candidate win, in a rigged system that relies more on nepotism, cash and blackmail than it does votes.

Anyone who has put themselves into a position where they could seriously be considered for the Presidency has already cut so many deals with various groups that they should be considered suspect in their every word or deed.

In that sense, Obama's not exactly exceptional, he's just done some extra work to make sure he knows how to play the game.  I mean, shit, does anyone really think any President since Truman (if not before) has had clean hands, in any way?  Definitely from Nixon onwards that is how the game has been played, at the very least.

[Cain]

you guys remember the  Obama apologist site?
http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

now there's a counter to it:
http://whatinthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

About bloody time.

[Cain]

He's from Kenya, come on. 

Fixed

He's a Chicago politician is closer to what I meant.  I'm an Illinoisan and what is it like our last two or three governors have been arrested and impeached?  He was buddy buddy with Blago and I figured the trial could have brought some of their crap to air but I figured wrong.

Accountability?  In American politics? 

You haven't paid much attention in the last decade, I can see.  Accountability is for little people.  Politicians, bankers, mercenaries and the like are such delicate yet vital figures they must be protected from any possible negative consequence of their actions.  For all time.

[Suu]

He's from Kenya, come on. 

Fixed

He's a Chicago politician is closer to what I meant.  I'm an Illinoisan and what is it like our last two or three governors have been arrested and impeached?  He was buddy buddy with Blago and I figured the trial could have brought some of their crap to air but I figured wrong.

That's it. We need a Rhode Island president.

Seriously, Buddy Cianci needs to run in 2012. He'll fucking win too. If it wasn't for that pesky felony charge and jail time he had to do.

[Cain]

I wish people would've seen him as the stinknut he was bad in 08.  He's from Chicago, come on.  I don't even see how the fuck can anyone feel comfortable in trusting either R's or D's anymore anyway.

1. Two party system means exactly that.
2. I'm not entirely sure that the folks here understand Chicago politics in the way we do.  

Two party system sucks big fat cock.  
What about the Greens and Libertarians?  I bet they wish they could have a turn.  I don't know how many times I've heard "don't throw your vote away" to people who want to vote for them.

Greens are liberal Democrats who got chucked out for being incompetent.  Same for Libertarians for batshit Republicans (when the Constitution Party or one of its many covers is not in the game).  Their only purpose is to be kicked when the party they are closest to lost the election, for "splitting the vote" (rarely, if ever, true).

[Cain]

1.  Duverger's Law means that a 2 party system is all you'll ever have.

How's that work for the Netherbelgiumlands?

Although we got zillions of parties and ended up with Wilders semi in the parliament, so that should kind of tell you multi-party systems are not a panacea either. Although I do have to say, it seems to be a step up from what you guys have to put up with.

Duverger's Law states that a winner-take-all system will go to two parties, so that all the wrong things get accomplished, and a parliamentary system will eventually generate so many parties that nothing at all can be accomplished (See:  Canada).

I'm not really seeing how the latter scenario has to be a bad thing.

(See: Canada? I hear they got healtcare and shit)

It can be OK, when the country in question doesn't need to sort it's shit out or collapse into some kind of authoritarian, "blood and soil" kind of stupidity, taking down the rest of the planet with it.  Sometimes, rarely, decisive action is actually needed.

[Cain]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

WE have no say in it.  THEY are going to do what THEY want to do.  If some 18 year old boy has a fantasy about being a Marine Patriot yadda yadda I'm not going to tell him he can't.  I'll shake my head when something goes wrong, but I'm not responsible for him.  Government spending on military is pathetic, but spending in LOTS of aspects is.

In what sense?  America spends more than the rest of NATO, plus China, plus Russia put together.  In fact, I believe it would take the next 51 countries on the list below the United States to beat it's current military budget, which is misleading anyway, as much military spending done by the US is being kept off the books.  There has never been such a relative spending disparity in all military history.

[Freeky]

I see your point, but these soldiers are not drafted.  They go in on their own choosing. 

Oh, well, then, we can just toss them away willy-nilly.

Just because I'm not for your side means I'm against it is what I'm getting from you.

I don't have a side, because none of these bastards are on *my* side.

WE have no say in it.  THEY are going to do what THEY want to do.  If some 18 year old boy has a fantasy about being a Marine Patriot yadda yadda I'm not going to tell him he can't.  I'll shake my head when something goes wrong, but I'm not responsible for him.  Government spending on military is pathetic, but spending in LOTS of aspects is.

In what sense?  America spends more than the rest of NATO, plus China, plus Russia put together.  In fact, I believe it would take the next 51 countries on the list below the United States to beat it's current military budget, which is misleading anyway, as much military spending done by the US is being kept off the books.  There has never been such a relative spending disparity in all military history.

I thought it was more in the sense that killing a kitten and bragging about it is pathetic, or Weltvager is pathetic.

Which still doesn't make much sense.