Anyone that's flying on Wednesday.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

[LMNO]

Perhaps it should be, "live free and die".

As the saying goes, you can have liberty or safety, but not both.

[Suu]

All that means is "WE DON'T WANT TO PAY TAXES SO FUCK YOU......but we still pay federal income tax and property taxes."

Freestaters are scary.

[AFK]

Perhaps it should be, "live free and die".

As the saying goes, you can have liberty or safety, but not both.

I agree.  And oddly symbolized by Nigel's post, considering that Man in the Mountain rock formation picture on the license plate has since, died/fallen off.  

[hooplala]

In addendum to all I've said so far, I feel the need to express how terrifying this really is to me. I have a far greater fear of a "secure state" than any potential terrorist attacks. And "I don't even fly."

Me too.

[Cramulus]

[Triple Zero]

Any terrorist organizations worth their salt are going to find ways around whatever cockamamie system we put up.  Even if these screenings were making it impossible for terrorists to wear explosives on the plane.  they'll just exploit the loopholes in cargo security.  Or they will abandon planes altogether and ship something in the bazillion containers that enter our ports that don't even get the eye-ball treatment.  

One of the problems America has is it seems to suffer from multiple personalities.  We want to be open and free while also being safe and secure.  I'm not sure it is possible to have both.  I think on some level, people have to accept that, well, we're people.  There are people who's hobby and/or profession and/or raison 'd-etre is to kill other people.  Of course we still need some kind of security and defense systems, but it is utterly unrealistic to think we can protect ourselves from harm forever.  People who want to kill us will find a way to kill us.  We just have to hope we aren't living in their bullseye.

Um, no, it REALLY doesn't have anything to do with security, even IF the prevention would have worked, the likelihood of getting killed in a terrorist attack is statistically about the same as the likelihood of getting ill from the backscatter radiation.

... and the radiation you're exposed to in an airplane speeding through high altitude is about a 100x more than that.

... and (I'm not sure on this one though) crossing the road is probably yet an even bigger risk to your health.

Seriously, not only do those systems not protect you against what they claim to protect you from, the thing they are supposed to protect you against is a danger that is completely insignificant when compared to every-day life, in the first place.

In addition to that, let me quote Schneier:

Exactly two things have made airline travel safer since 9/11: reinforcement of cockpit doors, and passengers who now know that they may have to fight back. Everything else is security theater.

(from http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/11/tsa_backscatter.html )

---------

I am putting "MERRY CHRISTMAS" across my ass in magnetic tape when I fly, and I'm walking through the perv machine. If anything, maybe I can start the "IT'S HAPPY HOLIDAYS NOT MERRY CHRISTMAS" bullshit amongst the minimum wage wackjobs they hire, and continue to my Jet Blue Extra Legroom 3 hours and 10 minute gate-to-gate experience in piece.

Um, so on the one hand you say you're going to be pissed about people holding up the line by opting to be patted down, and on the other hand you are going to pull a prank that is going to get you BOTH backscattered AND pat down? That doesn't make sense.

Also, if you think about trying that, I'd make sure that magnetic tape on your ass is actually going to show up on the screen before putting a lot of effort into it. As far as I know the backscatter machines work because they bounce low-power x-rays on your body, go through (most) clothes, but reflect (mostly) on your skin, so if you put tape on your skin, the most they're going to see is a very slight embossing? Maybe I'm completely wrong, but have there been any reports of successful "taping messages on your body / using strips of aluminium foil / etc" actions with the nude-scanners?

[Cuddlefish]

It's been on the nightly news ever since that cellphone video went viral.  Every single person they've asked has been against it.

What more do you want, armed insurrection?

Yeah, I've seen a few reports on it, but they were all, IMO, really slanted. Y'know, sensational sounding headlines: "4 Year Old Groped by TSA" but they all wrapped up by saying "but now your safe from people that want to harm 'Murricans."

Regardless, I'd say there's a matter of degrees between news coverage and armed insurrection. Meaning, I can want more without wanting armed insurrection. Though, one can dream...

[Cuddlefish]

[Suu]

Also, if you think about trying that, I'd make sure that magnetic tape on your ass is actually going to show up on the screen before putting a lot of effort into it. As far as I know the backscatter machines work because they bounce low-power x-rays on your body, go through (most) clothes, but reflect (mostly) on your skin, so if you put tape on your skin, the most they're going to see is a very slight embossing? Maybe I'm completely wrong, but have there been any reports of successful "taping messages on your body / using strips of aluminium foil / etc" actions with the nude-scanners?

I honestly don't know. I'm actually pretty sure I'm exposed to more radiation living within 20 miles of Fall River, let alone the MRIs and X-Rays I've had regularly for orthopedic purposes. But I don't particularly like the idea of being touched. Ever. By ANYONE, unless I'm dating you. So while people have their right to opt-out, I'll take my 3 seconds in the perv-scanner. This isn't actually a win-lose situation either way, and if someone actually gets a thrill out of a silvery scan of my size 14 ass, then good for them......The least I could do is wish them a Merry Christmas in the process.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Perhaps it should be, "live free and die".

As the saying goes, you can have liberty or safety, but not both.

The statement is incorrect.  The government cannot make you safe.

So you get neither.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I honestly don't know. I'm actually pretty sure I'm exposed to more radiation living within 20 miles of Fall River, let alone the MRIs and X-Rays I've had regularly for orthopedic purposes. But I don't particularly like the idea of being touched. Ever. By ANYONE, unless I'm dating you. So while people have their right to opt-out, I'll take my 3 seconds in the perv-scanner. This isn't actually a win-lose situation either way, and if someone actually gets a thrill out of a silvery scan of my size 14 ass, then good for them......The least I could do is wish them a Merry Christmas in the process.

If that's all it was, I'd agree.

But it isn't.  It's the not-so-thin edge of the wedge.  They're busy seeing just exactly what we'll put up with.

[Suu]

If that's all it was, I'd agree.

But it isn't.  It's the not-so-thin edge of the wedge.  They're busy seeing just exactly what we'll put up with.

Write your letters, then. That's what I'm doing.



...but I'd really like to see an angry mob storm into a terminal at JFK with sticks and pitchforks and take these machines out. That...THAT would be worth it.

[Suu]

Also: Off to class. Just in case you post to me and don't get a response for a while.

[AFK]

Um, no, it REALLY doesn't have anything to do with security, even IF the prevention would have worked, the likelihood of getting killed in a terrorist attack is statistically about the same as the likelihood of getting ill from the backscatter radiation.

... and the radiation you're exposed to in an airplane speeding through high altitude is about a 100x more than that.

... and (I'm not sure on this one though) crossing the road is probably yet an even bigger risk to your health.

Seriously, not only do those systems not protect you against what they claim to protect you from, the thing they are supposed to protect you against is a danger that is completely insignificant when compared to every-day life, in the first place.

It doesn't matter what the actual statistical probability is.  You are dealing with a public that bought into "death panels".  You are dealing with a public that just put back into power a political party that was at the steering wheel when our economy went into the drink.  You aren't going to get the horse to the trough to look at the water, much less drink it.  The American people overall believe we must be doing something to secure the country against terrorists.  Look at what we've done to 9/11.  It's practically a National Holiday.  This country has latched onto that and incorporated it into its overall identity and there are absolutely no signs that we are going to let go of that.   

So then the question becomes how much something do we do, how much something do we put up with in the name of security.  If we have to do something (have it in that the American people demand that we do something) what can we do that minimizes impact on liberty and freedom.  And in this thread, when it goes too far how do we address it so that it changes. 

But the arguments around statistics simply won't get us anywhere because the people aren't willing to listen to that.