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Treason.

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, January 12, 2011, 12:52:02 AM

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Requia ☣ on January 12, 2011, 04:11:28 AM
Quote from: Nigel on January 12, 2011, 03:56:53 AM
You should check out  the definition of the word "intent", that might help you out a bit.

And, if your next question is "who determines intent?", in the case that a person is tried under this law, the determination of intent would be made in a court of law, just as it is in other criminal cases.

Intent is whatever the prosecutor says intent is, its the same with every other 'intent' law.

WOW.

Again, just no. By orders of magnitude this time.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


BadBeast

Quote from: Nigel on January 12, 2011, 04:19:59 AM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on January 12, 2011, 04:11:28 AM
Quote from: Nigel on January 12, 2011, 03:56:53 AM
You should check out  the definition of the word "intent", that might help you out a bit.

And, if your next question is "who determines intent?", in the case that a person is tried under this law, the determination of intent would be made in a court of law, just as it is in other criminal cases.

Intent is whatever the prosecutor says intent is, its the same with every other 'intent' law.

WOW.

Again, just no. By orders of magnitude this time.
Here they don't even have to specify what intent was being intended. The mere addition of the words "with intent" hung on the end of any assault charge at all, generally means the difference between a custodial sentence and a community based sentence.
And to Loiter, in itself is not an offence at all. But if they sling "with intent" on the end, "Loitering with intent" is an arrestible offence. They never have to specify "intent" because you're never going to get charged with it. But it's open day on just about anybody they really want to screw over. Which worries me a lot. Not for myself, but generally. I remember how rough that can get. And why I shouldn't ever be tempted to IRL Troll the Police again.
"We need a plane for Bombing, Strafing, Assault and Battery, Interception, Ground Support, and Reconaissance,
NOT JUST A "FAIR WEATHER FIGHTER"!

"I kinda like him. It's like he sees inside my soul" ~ Nigel


Whoever puts their hand on me to govern me, is a usurper, and a tyrant, and I declare them my enemy!

"And when the clouds obscure the moon, and normal service is resumed. It wont. Mean. A. Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpkCJDYxH-4

Requia ☣

Prosecutors have successfully federal twisted hacking laws to make giving a fake name on myspace a criminal charge (even got a conviction).  You must *always* assume the worst about any proposed law.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.

BadBeast

Quote from: Requia ☣ on January 12, 2011, 07:09:57 AM
Prosecutors have successfully federal twisted hacking laws to make giving a fake name on myspace a criminal charge (even got a conviction).  You must *always* assume the worst about any proposed law.
That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard .............all day! What about non-US Name-cheaters? Extradition?
"We need a plane for Bombing, Strafing, Assault and Battery, Interception, Ground Support, and Reconaissance,
NOT JUST A "FAIR WEATHER FIGHTER"!

"I kinda like him. It's like he sees inside my soul" ~ Nigel


Whoever puts their hand on me to govern me, is a usurper, and a tyrant, and I declare them my enemy!

"And when the clouds obscure the moon, and normal service is resumed. It wont. Mean. A. Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpkCJDYxH-4

The Johnny


Well, at least we'll all get to meet each other at Guantomono  :mrgreen:
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Phox

Quote from: Requia ☣ on January 12, 2011, 07:09:57 AM
Prosecutors have successfully federal twisted hacking laws to make giving a fake name on myspace a criminal charge (even got a conviction).  You must *always* assume the worst about any proposed law.

Actually, if the case I'm thinking of is the same one, the woman convicted was engaged in cyberbullying that resulted in the death of a teenage girl, right? IIRC, the case was made that the woman was perpetrating a hoax, which is NOT the same as using a pseudonym to make an account.

BadBeast

Quote from: Joh'Nyx on January 12, 2011, 07:25:34 AM

Well, at least we'll all get to meet each other at Guantomono  :mrgreen:
Not if they suspect we are part of the same group. They'll just solitary everyone else for 6 months, and start water boarding you for info.
"We need a plane for Bombing, Strafing, Assault and Battery, Interception, Ground Support, and Reconaissance,
NOT JUST A "FAIR WEATHER FIGHTER"!

"I kinda like him. It's like he sees inside my soul" ~ Nigel


Whoever puts their hand on me to govern me, is a usurper, and a tyrant, and I declare them my enemy!

"And when the clouds obscure the moon, and normal service is resumed. It wont. Mean. A. Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpkCJDYxH-4

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I just fucking

:facepalm:

Intent is the fucking crux of this law, which has existed since nineteen fucking forty. The prosecutor has to PROVE INTENT TO COMMIT TREASON. Just like "intent" is crucial for a murder conviction. You CANNOT be convicted of inciting violence unless you can be proven in a court of law to have intended to incite violence. Otherwise, it's just an unfortunate coincidence, and not a crime.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Phox

Quote from: Nigel on January 12, 2011, 07:53:27 AM
I just fucking

:facepalm:

Intent is the fucking crux of this law, which has existed since nineteen fucking forty. The prosecutor has to PROVE INTENT TO COMMIT TREASON. Just like "intent" is crucial for a murder conviction. You CANNOT be convicted of inciting violence unless you can be proven in a court of law to have intended to incite violence. Otherwise, it's just an unfortunate coincidence, and not a crime.

But Nigel! The mean prosecutors badger the witnesses! They twist the federal of the judges! They will manipulate you into signing a full confession!

Seriously though, Requia, how many treason cases do you fucking see? This law isn't new. It's been on the books for a long fucking time.

Bruno

I thought overthrowing the government was one of them inalienable rights what baby Jesus done give us.  :?
Formerly something else...

Disco Pickle

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government

I haven't seen any information from the tea party advocating the overthrow or destruction of the US government.

And if that position is out there, It's likely on the fringe of the fringe.  And really, I'd be interested to see what that nutjobbery's idea is to replace it with, just so I can laugh good and hard about it.
"Events in the past may be roughly divided into those which probably never happened and those which do not matter." --William Ralph Inge

"sometimes someone confesses a sin in order to take credit for it." -- John Von Neumann

Cain

I was into treason before it became big and popular.

Adios

Once the government stops following the constitution, then at that point it is no longer treason to try to overthrow the government. At that exact moment it becomes patriotic.

East Coast Hustle

Try telling that to the prosecutor.
Rabid Colostomy Hole Jammer of the Coming Apocalypse™

The Devil is in the details; God is in the nuance.


Some yahoo yelled at me, saying 'GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH', and I thought, "I'm feeling generous today.  Why not BOTH?"

Adios

Quote from: East Coast Hipster on January 12, 2011, 02:57:44 PM
Try telling that to the prosecutor.

This I understand. That doesn't alter the fact that at that point rebellion is a civic duty.