UNLIMITED GOP 2012 PRIMARY CANDIDATE THREAD

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I'm a hopeless Democrat stooge because I have liked all 2 of the speeches I've watched so far. Especially that pretty black lady.

[LMNO]

She, uh... Well, if we're gonna give Ann Romney a hard time about not really being poor, the Obamas weren't exactly working class either, though she tried hard to make it sound that way.

[Luna]

Another thing to look out for with the 2004 tactics is going over the top and implicitly calling Romney a traitor because of offshore investments made by a blind trust.

Except that some guy once said that blaming where your money is on a blind trust an "age-old ruse."  That was back in 1994, in a campaign against Ted Kennedy...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/democalypse-2012---bain-damage---romney-s-blind-trust

If you're gonna use an excuse for something, try to make the excuse one that you haven't gone on the record with as stating is bullshit. 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

She, uh... Well, if we're gonna give Ann Romney a hard time about not really being poor, the Obamas weren't exactly working class either, though she tried hard to make it sound that way.

I would be willing to bet that they were considerably closer to real life than the Romneys ever were, but you're right. I am just less likely to care because her speech was way better. I'm a cheap date, politically speaking.

[LMNO]

Another thing to look out for with the 2004 tactics is going over the top and implicitly calling Romney a traitor because of offshore investments made by a blind trust.

Except that some guy once said that blaming where your money is on a blind trust an "age-old ruse."  That was back in 1994, in a campaign against Ted Kennedy...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/democalypse-2012---bain-damage---romney-s-blind-trust

If you're gonna use an excuse for something, try to make the excuse one that you haven't gone on the record with as stating is bullshit.

Sure, but calling him unpatriotic because he made offshore investments?  Hypocritical, sure, but don't go beating the chest of nationalism too hard for something that isn't actually traitorous.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Another thing to look out for with the 2004 tactics is going over the top and implicitly calling Romney a traitor because of offshore investments made by a blind trust.

Except that some guy once said that blaming where your money is on a blind trust an "age-old ruse."  That was back in 1994, in a campaign against Ted Kennedy...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/democalypse-2012---bain-damage---romney-s-blind-trust

If you're gonna use an excuse for something, try to make the excuse one that you haven't gone on the record with as stating is bullshit.

Sure, but calling him unpatriotic because he made offshore investments?  Hypocritical, sure, but don't go beating the chest of nationalism too hard for something that isn't actually traitorous.

"Unpatriotic" != "traitorous"

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Another thing to look out for with the 2004 tactics is going over the top and implicitly calling Romney a traitor because of offshore investments made by a blind trust.

Except that some guy once said that blaming where your money is on a blind trust an "age-old ruse."  That was back in 1994, in a campaign against Ted Kennedy...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/democalypse-2012---bain-damage---romney-s-blind-trust

If you're gonna use an excuse for something, try to make the excuse one that you haven't gone on the record with as stating is bullshit.

Sure, but calling him unpatriotic because he made offshore investments?  Hypocritical, sure, but don't go beating the chest of nationalism too hard for something that isn't actually traitorous.

"Unpatriotic" != "traitorous"

Also, "offshore investments" is misleading. These accounts exist explicitly and solely for the purpose of dodging taxes. They are only "investments" in a secondary, far less meaningful way.

[LMNO]

Hm.  Point.  So, are these actions unpatriotic?  Do tax shelters make people "Bad Americans"?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hm.  Point.  So, are these actions unpatriotic?  Do tax shelters make people "Bad Americans"?

Yes.  If you live in a society and gain from it's benefits (roads, schools, etc), then you pay back in.  Hiding your taxable cash overseas is stealing from everyone around you, especially the next generation...And the fact that you have to be rich to bother doing it makes it even more odious.  Those who benefit most pay least.  It's fucking backwards, and the people that do it should be shown for precisely what they are.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Hm.  Point.  So, are these actions unpatriotic?  Do tax shelters make people "Bad Americans"?

Since I don't believe in nationality, I don't believe there's a "wrong" way to be a National. At a certain point in wealth accumulation, there's a fundamental disconnect I don't think anyone can be reasonably expected to compensate for. The super wealthy might be assholes, but it's not entirely their own fault. Their set of circumstances and stimuli do not provide a real way for them to identify with, connect with, or help the less fortunate other than the bullshit "charity" gestures they might make. From a moral perspective there's nothing "wrong" with this, it's just the way it is. People will protect what's theirs to whatever extent they can, provided it's more convenient than just paying taxes.

From a practical perspective, it's fucked as shit. Tax havens and shelters are engineered to sidestep a society's sole method of ensuring equal opportunity to all members. There are two reasons you'd try to evade taxes: A) you are protecting what's yours on a strictly territorial/monkey level, or B) you honestly detest the idea of equal opportunity. Regardless of your reasoning, society should have the power to stop you from doing it, even if it hurts your feelings, because society as a whole is more important than you are as an individual.

So on moral grounds I give tax evasion a pass, but on social/practical grounds don't. If there's a difference.

[Luna]

Hm.  Point.  So, are these actions unpatriotic?  Do tax shelters make people "Bad Americans"?

Yes.  If you live in a society and gain from it's benefits (roads, schools, etc), then you pay back in.  Hiding your taxable cash overseas is stealing from everyone around you, especially the next generation...And the fact that you have to be rich to bother doing it makes it even more odious.  Those who benefit most pay least.  It's fucking backwards, and the people that do it should be shown for precisely what they are.

This.

There's also the fact to consider that he is (at the moment) fervently anti-choice... yet made millions investing in a company which disposed of aborted fetuses...

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Bain got a ten million dollar bailout by the FDIC?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/pictures/mitt-romneys-federal-bailout-the-documents-20120829

[Luna]

Bain got a ten million dollar bailout by the FDIC?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/pictures/mitt-romneys-federal-bailout-the-documents-20120829

Factcheck:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/bidens-incorrect-claim-that-a-bain-bailout-cost-american-taxpayers/2012/09/03/b349eab8-f5db-11e1-8b93-c4f4ab1c8d13_blog.html?wprss=rss_fact-checke

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Bain got a ten million dollar bailout by the FDIC?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/pictures/mitt-romneys-federal-bailout-the-documents-20120829

Factcheck:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/bidens-incorrect-claim-that-a-bain-bailout-cost-american-taxpayers/2012/09/03/b349eab8-f5db-11e1-8b93-c4f4ab1c8d13_blog.html?wprss=rss_fact-checke

Hmmm...

As we noted: "That's right — no taxpayer money is involved. The FDIC prides itself on not taking taxpayer funds."

The Rolling Stone article concedes this point: "While taxpayers did not finance the bailout, the debt forgiven by the government was booked as a loss to the FDIC – and then recouped through higher insurance premiums from banks."

The article argues that because such fees typically are passed on by banks to consumers, then the American people "ultimately" paid for the loan reduction. That is certainly an interesting argument, but it's not the same thing as "the government and American taxpayers."

[Luna]

Bain got a ten million dollar bailout by the FDIC?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/pictures/mitt-romneys-federal-bailout-the-documents-20120829

Factcheck:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/bidens-incorrect-claim-that-a-bain-bailout-cost-american-taxpayers/2012/09/03/b349eab8-f5db-11e1-8b93-c4f4ab1c8d13_blog.html?wprss=rss_fact-checke

Hmmm...

As we noted: "That's right — no taxpayer money is involved. The FDIC prides itself on not taking taxpayer funds."

The Rolling Stone article concedes this point: "While taxpayers did not finance the bailout, the debt forgiven by the government was booked as a loss to the FDIC – and then recouped through higher insurance premiums from banks."

The article argues that because such fees typically are passed on by banks to consumers, then the American people "ultimately" paid for the loan reduction. That is certainly an interesting argument, but it's not the same thing as "the government and American taxpayers."

Yeah...  It was, in fact, a bailout, it was financed by the FDIC, which ultimately passed on the cost... but it wasn't DIRECTLY taxpayer money.