Luna's Adventures in Payroll

[Luna]

Today's added bit of joy.

This is a university, which means, during the summer, we cut WAY back on our dining staff.  (Minimal number of kids here, we don't need the full kitchen.)

Law in this state is that if you take a job at a school, and are laid off for the summer with reasonable assurance of reemployment in the fall, you can NOT collect unemployment.

So, now, just before graduation, we get a rash of mysterious, disabling injuries among the dining staff.  Departments where we go all year without an incident suddenly have three guys hurt themselves at once.

They go, collect TDI.  We fume, 'cause we can't prove shit.

Sounds like state laws are fucked in the head.

Yes and no.  Without this setup, teachers could (and do try to, I see at least one a year try it) demand through their unions that they be paid through the school year and NOT paid over the summer, then apply for and try to receive unemployment from the state.  They're NOT bloody unemployed, they just took a job where, instead of getting 10 days of vacation a year, they get a set three month vacation (during which they're still getting benefits like health insurance).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Today's added bit of joy.

This is a university, which means, during the summer, we cut WAY back on our dining staff.  (Minimal number of kids here, we don't need the full kitchen.)

Law in this state is that if you take a job at a school, and are laid off for the summer with reasonable assurance of reemployment in the fall, you can NOT collect unemployment.

So, now, just before graduation, we get a rash of mysterious, disabling injuries among the dining staff.  Departments where we go all year without an incident suddenly have three guys hurt themselves at once.

They go, collect TDI.  We fume, 'cause we can't prove shit.

Sounds like state laws are fucked in the head.

Yes and no.  Without this setup, teachers could (and do try to, I see at least one a year try it) demand through their unions that they be paid through the school year and NOT paid over the summer, then apply for and try to receive unemployment from the state.  They're NOT bloody unemployed, they just took a job where, instead of getting 10 days of vacation a year, they get a set three month vacation (during which they're still getting benefits like health insurance).

Your teachers are paid hourly rather than an annual salary? 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Seriously, I cannot imagine how that could be a real problem, at least if your state handles teacher's salaries the way most do. A 12-month contract with a salary is very very different from an hourly job.

[Suu]

All you need to know is that Rhode Island is broken.

[Luna]

Today's added bit of joy.

This is a university, which means, during the summer, we cut WAY back on our dining staff.  (Minimal number of kids here, we don't need the full kitchen.)

Law in this state is that if you take a job at a school, and are laid off for the summer with reasonable assurance of reemployment in the fall, you can NOT collect unemployment.

So, now, just before graduation, we get a rash of mysterious, disabling injuries among the dining staff.  Departments where we go all year without an incident suddenly have three guys hurt themselves at once.

They go, collect TDI.  We fume, 'cause we can't prove shit.

Sounds like state laws are fucked in the head.

Yes and no.  Without this setup, teachers could (and do try to, I see at least one a year try it) demand through their unions that they be paid through the school year and NOT paid over the summer, then apply for and try to receive unemployment from the state.  They're NOT bloody unemployed, they just took a job where, instead of getting 10 days of vacation a year, they get a set three month vacation (during which they're still getting benefits like health insurance).

Your teachers are paid hourly rather than an annual salary? 

No, they get an annual salary...  They just want that salary paid over the time that they're here (22 larger instead of 26 smaller checks), so they can collect unemployment over the summer.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Today's added bit of joy.

This is a university, which means, during the summer, we cut WAY back on our dining staff.  (Minimal number of kids here, we don't need the full kitchen.)

Law in this state is that if you take a job at a school, and are laid off for the summer with reasonable assurance of reemployment in the fall, you can NOT collect unemployment.

So, now, just before graduation, we get a rash of mysterious, disabling injuries among the dining staff.  Departments where we go all year without an incident suddenly have three guys hurt themselves at once.

They go, collect TDI.  We fume, 'cause we can't prove shit.

Sounds like state laws are fucked in the head.

Yes and no.  Without this setup, teachers could (and do try to, I see at least one a year try it) demand through their unions that they be paid through the school year and NOT paid over the summer, then apply for and try to receive unemployment from the state.  They're NOT bloody unemployed, they just took a job where, instead of getting 10 days of vacation a year, they get a set three month vacation (during which they're still getting benefits like health insurance).

Your teachers are paid hourly rather than an annual salary?  

No, they get an annual salary...  They just want that salary paid over the time that they're here (22 larger instead of 26 smaller checks), so they can collect unemployment over the summer.

For unemployment purposes, that wouldn't matter if they have an annual salary and a contract. They could get paid in a lump sum in September, and it would still not matter for purposes of collecting unemployment. I call straw man argument. Your state's unemployment laws are fucked in the head.

People who earn an hourly wage are in a different boat. They should be (and in my state are) able to collect unemployment during the months that they are not actually earning wages due to a seasonal layoff. We wouldn't have any smokejumpers otherwise.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

All you need to know is that Rhode Island is broken.

This seems very accurate.

[Luna]

For unemployment purposes, that wouldn't matter if they have an annual salary and a contract. They could get paid in a lump sum in September, and it would still not matter for purposes of unemployment. I call straw man argument.

People who earn an hourly wage are in a different boat. They should be (and in my state are) able to collect unemployment during the months that they are not actually earning wages due to a seasonal layoff. We wouldn't have any smokejumpers otherwise.

Oh, I understand the argument, but that's not how the law is written.  The argument from the teachers is that they are effectively unemployed, not working, over the summer.  (Trust me, I've had them here in my office trying to argue it with me, trying to convince me that switching them to a nine or ten month pay cycle will let them collect what they feel entitled to.)

Do I feel bad for the hourly guys caught by the same argument?  Yes... but when they took the job, I know that they were told that's how it works, and that they can't collect.  It's not a surprise.

All you need to know is that Rhode Island is broken.

This seems very accurate.

Oh, absolutely.  But we've gotta deal with the laws we've got.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

For unemployment purposes, that wouldn't matter if they have an annual salary and a contract. They could get paid in a lump sum in September, and it would still not matter for purposes of unemployment. I call straw man argument.

People who earn an hourly wage are in a different boat. They should be (and in my state are) able to collect unemployment during the months that they are not actually earning wages due to a seasonal layoff. We wouldn't have any smokejumpers otherwise.

Oh, I understand the argument, but that's not how the law is written.  The argument from the teachers is that they are effectively unemployed, not working, over the summer.  (Trust me, I've had them here in my office trying to argue it with me, trying to convince me that switching them to a nine or ten month pay cycle will let them collect what they feel entitled to.)

Do I feel bad for the hourly guys caught by the same argument?  Yes... but when they took the job, I know that they were told that's how it works, and that they can't collect.  It's not a surprise.

All you need to know is that Rhode Island is broken.

This seems very accurate.

Oh, absolutely.  But we've gotta deal with the laws we've got.

The teachers are stupid for making that argument. It's an idiotic argument. But the teachers being stupid is kind of irrelevant... stupid people are everywhere. It's supposed to be the job of the people who write the law to make sure it's not moronic.

The law is stupid for lumping hourly and salaried workers together.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Mind-bogglingly stupid, in fact.

[Luna]

The teachers are stupid for making that argument. It's an idiotic argument. But the teachers being stupid is kind of irrelevant... stupid people are everywhere. It's supposed to be the job of the people who write the law to make sure it's not moronic.

The law is stupid for lumping hourly and salaried workers together.

The professors here couldn't collect over the summer, regardless of how they were paid, since they have a contract.

Professional and non-professional employees of educational institutions, educational service agencies and certain other educational employers may be eligible for unemployment ONLY if they do not have a contract or if their employer has not provided written reasonable assurance of their employment for the following year, term or remainder of a term. State law requires each school department to provide reasonable assurance in writing to those individuals who will be unemployed during the summer but will return to work once the summer break ends. If teachers, professional and non-professional educational employees, DO have a contract or written reasonable assurance of employment, they are ineligible to collect unemployment insurance benefits using their educational wages.

http://www.dlt.state.ri.us/ui/teachers.htm

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The teachers are stupid for making that argument. It's an idiotic argument. But the teachers being stupid is kind of irrelevant... stupid people are everywhere. It's supposed to be the job of the people who write the law to make sure it's not moronic.

The law is stupid for lumping hourly and salaried workers together.

The professors here couldn't collect over the summer, regardless of how they were paid, since they have a contract.

Professional and non-professional employees of educational institutions, educational service agencies and certain other educational employers may be eligible for unemployment ONLY if they do not have a contract or if their employer has not provided written reasonable assurance of their employment for the following year, term or remainder of a term. State law requires each school department to provide reasonable assurance in writing to those individuals who will be unemployed during the summer but will return to work once the summer break ends. If teachers, professional and non-professional educational employees, DO have a contract or written reasonable assurance of employment, they are ineligible to collect unemployment insurance benefits using their educational wages.

http://www.dlt.state.ri.us/ui/teachers.htm

Right. That's completely normal.

What's NOT normal is uncontracted hourly wage employees being unable to collect unemployment during summer months because the position resumes in the fall. IF that's actually the case, the law is seriously borked.

[Luna]

The teachers are stupid for making that argument. It's an idiotic argument. But the teachers being stupid is kind of irrelevant... stupid people are everywhere. It's supposed to be the job of the people who write the law to make sure it's not moronic.

The law is stupid for lumping hourly and salaried workers together.

The professors here couldn't collect over the summer, regardless of how they were paid, since they have a contract.

Professional and non-professional employees of educational institutions, educational service agencies and certain other educational employers may be eligible for unemployment ONLY if they do not have a contract or if their employer has not provided written reasonable assurance of their employment for the following year, term or remainder of a term. State law requires each school department to provide reasonable assurance in writing to those individuals who will be unemployed during the summer but will return to work once the summer break ends. If teachers, professional and non-professional educational employees, DO have a contract or written reasonable assurance of employment, they are ineligible to collect unemployment insurance benefits using their educational wages.

http://www.dlt.state.ri.us/ui/teachers.htm

Right. That's completely normal.

What's NOT normal is uncontracted hourly wage employees being unable to collect unemployment during summer months because the position resumes in the fall. IF that's actually the case, the law is seriously borked.

They're contracted, actually.  Union.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The teachers are stupid for making that argument. It's an idiotic argument. But the teachers being stupid is kind of irrelevant... stupid people are everywhere. It's supposed to be the job of the people who write the law to make sure it's not moronic.

The law is stupid for lumping hourly and salaried workers together.

The professors here couldn't collect over the summer, regardless of how they were paid, since they have a contract.

Professional and non-professional employees of educational institutions, educational service agencies and certain other educational employers may be eligible for unemployment ONLY if they do not have a contract or if their employer has not provided written reasonable assurance of their employment for the following year, term or remainder of a term. State law requires each school department to provide reasonable assurance in writing to those individuals who will be unemployed during the summer but will return to work once the summer break ends. If teachers, professional and non-professional educational employees, DO have a contract or written reasonable assurance of employment, they are ineligible to collect unemployment insurance benefits using their educational wages.

http://www.dlt.state.ri.us/ui/teachers.htm

Right. That's completely normal.

What's NOT normal is uncontracted hourly wage employees being unable to collect unemployment during summer months because the position resumes in the fall. IF that's actually the case, the law is seriously borked.

They're contracted, actually.  Union.

The kitchen staff is hourly, contracted, and union? And the union doesn't have their asses covered during the summer? In other states they would still be able to collect unemployment during times when they are involuntarily not working and not getting paid. (As opposed to a salaried position, where pay for the off months is built into the salary.)

[Luna]

The kitchen staff is hourly, contracted, and union? And the union doesn't have their asses covered during the summer? In other states they would still be able to collect unemployment during times when they are involuntarily not working and not getting paid. (As opposed to a salaried position, where pay for the off months is built into the salary.)

They are hourly, and under a union contract, yes.  And, yes, the union hasn't done anything to cover them during the summer.

In RI, presumably, it's the concept that "you KNEW you weren't going to work over the summer, since it's a school, and voluntarily took the position with that understanding in mind, so it's NOT involuntary."

Is what it is.