Gold hits $1500.00 an Oz. for first time.

[Laughin Jude]

I could argue those points, but the 'you can't eat gold' idea seems to be pretty strong in a lot of people.  To each their own. The demand is increasing despite the nay sayers.

So, why do you think central banks are buying the stuff at increasing rates?  Are they fools?

Fools? Not necessarily. Con artists? Absolutely.

As far as I can tell, a lot of people are just hard-wired to think that gold = valuable even though it's effectively worthless from a practical viewpoint. The supposed value of gold represents a hell of a bit of mental programming, and I have to wonder if it's more nature (Ooo, ape like pretty rocks) or nurture (Gold is valuable because we've said so for thousands of years). Either way, it seems the bankers are happy to take advantage of our love of shiny things to bilk people out of their labor and goods. Even if the current gold-based system is completely retarded, the bankers are making a killing off of it and likely expect to continue doing so for the foreseeable future, so there's no reason for them not to continue propping up gold, even if they know better: "no one else is being a rational actor, so why should I?"

what do you mean by artificial value?

and currencies were created to fix the problem in bartering of two things being exchanged having a different real value.  Zombie apocalypse aside, that would still be useful given a sufficiently large enough trading population.

To step in with my two cents on this: gold has almost no independent (as opposed to "artificial") value. It's arguably useful as a stand-in for other goods to simplify exchanges... but then, the same exact thing can be said of fiat money, and you run into the same problem with gold that you do with fiat money: it's only "worth" something because the powers that be say it's worth something, and unlike the goods and labor it represents, you can't actually do anything with it.

This is my fundamental problem with seeing gold as somehow "superior" to paper money: there's really no reason for anyone to accept either as currency except a standing social agreement to do so. That's damn convenient, granted, but the problem comes when goldbugs start acting like gold would have meaningful value if civilization fell apart. It wouldn't, at least not for the average person trying to get by. Food, water, textiles, energy, medicine--that's where the value's going to be if the world goes to hell. Gold, like any other currency, only has value so long as you're working within an economic system that agrees it has value; gold represents an abstraction of value, rather than having value itself, whereas consumable, life-preserving goods retain their values regardless of whatever economic system you're operating in because people need them to survive.

Of course, to all of that you have to apply the caveat that some people are just dumb and would gladly hand you the last of their food and water if you offered them a palmful of gold without thinking it through. People aren't necessarily rational actors, after all.

I think if there is a zombie apocolypse, currency is going to be the least of anyone's concerns.  If it had to be a metal, I would say lead...

Has there ever been a short story where some alchemist living in a post-apocalyptic wasteland is trying to transmute gold into lead so he can make more ammunition? Sounds like a fun one to write.

[BabylonHoruv]

what Luna said...
they are primarily ripoff companies with ripoff marketing catering to unfounded fear/greed.

Yeah, that makes sense. Stupid people being duped by stupid things.

You know, I never quite understood the "invest in metals" ideology. Can someone explain the rational behind it?

well, as far as 'investing', it seems pretty simple.  if you believe they are going to go up in price for one reason or another, you dump money in to seek roi.  actually, i'm not sure what the confusion is... why would it seem any different than investing in wheat futures, or anything else?

That's what I mean. Investing in gold and silver doesn't seem like it's any different than investing in... anything else. Yet, I know quite a number of people who strongly advocate that investing in gold and silver is the most important thing you can do with your money (my ex-fiancée's grandparents, for example). So, I'm wondering... what makes it more important?


As for the zombie apocalypse, I think you're better off investing in a decent sized patch of land away from civilization with a few engineering projects to make it self-sufficient and defensible, personally, but.... hey, maybe the zombies will be allergic to gold? 

zombie apocalypse types assume (not unreasonably) that it'll return to being a useful medium of exchange and will have value after a collapse of paper currencies.  of course, you can't eat gold, but gold would probably be the only thing that would buy you a plane ticket to somewhere not yet infected by zombies.  or get you into a vault.

Fair point, but that assumes that there are vaults/uninfected places to begin with. I foresee that being a relatively short term solution. It also assumes that people universally accept gold as innately valuable.

Phox,
Does not, and especially wouldn't in the event of zombies.

even though it's fallen out of use as commonly accepted currency, it still retains values necessary for a good medium of exchange: portable, easily weighted and divided, able to be easily marked with a given value, and difficult to counterfeit.

all reasons to assume it would go back to being a currency useful for exchanging goods and services.

Personally I think a better bet for post apocalyptic currency is bullets.  They're portable, fairly light weight, and actually useful.

[BabylonHoruv]

I could argue those points, but the 'you can't eat gold' idea seems to be pretty strong in a lot of people.  To each their own. The demand is increasing despite the nay sayers.

So, why do you think central banks are buying the stuff at increasing rates?  Are they fools?

Artificial value =/= valuable in zombieland.

what do you mean by artificial value?

]and currencies were created to fix the problem in bartering of two things being exchanged having a different real value. 

That is precisely what I mean. The value placed on gold, silver, jewels, and paper currency is artificial/cultural. It's not intrinsic to the item, it's based on an assigned value

it's value of anything is assigned by the person who owns it, and value is set by how much another person is willing to work or trade for it.   I may have something you want and are willing to say: trade me by doing work equivalent to what we agree upon is a fair amount of work in exchange.  Lets say I don't need any work done, but know a guy who does need about the same amount of work you're offering me in exchange for my product, who also happens to have something of similar value that I want, it's simply a matter of giving you the thing you want if you agree to work for this other guy in exchange for what I want from him.  Your work has just been used as a currency, and we both agreed on what it was worth based on how much you were willing to do.   

In other words, the value of EVERYTHING is artificially set by the people exchanging it.  Metals were used because of their scarcity, or difficulty in obtaining easily, thus allowing them to retain a given value.  If you pick a currency that is easy to obtain, it will quickly loose value as everyone will be able to have it without expending any effort, or work. 

something like this was in part of The Hitchhikers Guide, when the ship carrying the people that would eventually populate the earth crash landed and began using tree leaves as currency.  Naturally, inflation and devaluation was out of control.

Durability is also one of the reasons Gold makes such an ideal currency. 

I think it is a great hedge against a slow decline of civilization, while still being a crappy one against an actual collapse of civilization.

[Disco Pickle]

I could argue those points, but the 'you can't eat gold' idea seems to be pretty strong in a lot of people.  To each their own. The demand is increasing despite the nay sayers.

So, why do you think central banks are buying the stuff at increasing rates?  Are they fools?

Artificial value =/= valuable in zombieland.

what do you mean by artificial value?

]and currencies were created to fix the problem in bartering of two things being exchanged having a different real value. 

That is precisely what I mean. The value placed on gold, silver, jewels, and paper currency is artificial/cultural. It's not intrinsic to the item, it's based on an assigned value

it's value of anything is assigned by the person who owns it, and value is set by how much another person is willing to work or trade for it.   I may have something you want and are willing to say: trade me by doing work equivalent to what we agree upon is a fair amount of work in exchange.  Lets say I don't need any work done, but know a guy who does need about the same amount of work you're offering me in exchange for my product, who also happens to have something of similar value that I want, it's simply a matter of giving you the thing you want if you agree to work for this other guy in exchange for what I want from him.  Your work has just been used as a currency, and we both agreed on what it was worth based on how much you were willing to do.   

In other words, the value of EVERYTHING is artificially set by the people exchanging it.  Metals were used because of their scarcity, or difficulty in obtaining easily, thus allowing them to retain a given value.  If you pick a currency that is easy to obtain, it will quickly loose value as everyone will be able to have it without expending any effort, or work. 

something like this was in part of The Hitchhikers Guide, when the ship carrying the people that would eventually populate the earth crash landed and began using tree leaves as currency.  Naturally, inflation and devaluation was out of control.

Durability is also one of the reasons Gold makes such an ideal currency. 

I think it is a great hedge against a slow decline of civilization, while still being a crappy one against an actual collapse of civilization.

yeah, the apocalypse types are pretty fuckin daft IMO, but it's still a decent hedge when a recession comes around every 30 or so years.  Property will always be the best long term investment though. 

[Phox]

I could argue those points, but the 'you can't eat gold' idea seems to be pretty strong in a lot of people.  To each their own. The demand is increasing despite the nay sayers.

So, why do you think central banks are buying the stuff at increasing rates?  Are they fools?

Artificial value =/= valuable in zombieland.

what do you mean by artificial value?

]and currencies were created to fix the problem in bartering of two things being exchanged having a different real value. 

That is precisely what I mean. The value placed on gold, silver, jewels, and paper currency is artificial/cultural. It's not intrinsic to the item, it's based on an assigned value

it's value of anything is assigned by the person who owns it, and value is set by how much another person is willing to work or trade for it.   I may have something you want and are willing to say: trade me by doing work equivalent to what we agree upon is a fair amount of work in exchange.  Lets say I don't need any work done, but know a guy who does need about the same amount of work you're offering me in exchange for my product, who also happens to have something of similar value that I want, it's simply a matter of giving you the thing you want if you agree to work for this other guy in exchange for what I want from him.  Your work has just been used as a currency, and we both agreed on what it was worth based on how much you were willing to do.   

In other words, the value of EVERYTHING is artificially set by the people exchanging it.  Metals were used because of their scarcity, or difficulty in obtaining easily, thus allowing them to retain a given value.  If you pick a currency that is easy to obtain, it will quickly loose value as everyone will be able to have it without expending any effort, or work. 

something like this was in part of The Hitchhikers Guide, when the ship carrying the people that would eventually populate the earth crash landed and began using tree leaves as currency.  Naturally, inflation and devaluation was out of control.

Yes. I agree with you. Why are you trying to argue with me? 

[Disco Pickle]

I could argue those points, but the 'you can't eat gold' idea seems to be pretty strong in a lot of people.  To each their own. The demand is increasing despite the nay sayers.

So, why do you think central banks are buying the stuff at increasing rates?  Are they fools?

Artificial value =/= valuable in zombieland.

what do you mean by artificial value?

]and currencies were created to fix the problem in bartering of two things being exchanged having a different real value. 

That is precisely what I mean. The value placed on gold, silver, jewels, and paper currency is artificial/cultural. It's not intrinsic to the item, it's based on an assigned value

it's value of anything is assigned by the person who owns it, and value is set by how much another person is willing to work or trade for it.   I may have something you want and are willing to say: trade me by doing work equivalent to what we agree upon is a fair amount of work in exchange.  Lets say I don't need any work done, but know a guy who does need about the same amount of work you're offering me in exchange for my product, who also happens to have something of similar value that I want, it's simply a matter of giving you the thing you want if you agree to work for this other guy in exchange for what I want from him.  Your work has just been used as a currency, and we both agreed on what it was worth based on how much you were willing to do.   

In other words, the value of EVERYTHING is artificially set by the people exchanging it.  Metals were used because of their scarcity, or difficulty in obtaining easily, thus allowing them to retain a given value.  If you pick a currency that is easy to obtain, it will quickly loose value as everyone will be able to have it without expending any effort, or work. 

something like this was in part of The Hitchhikers Guide, when the ship carrying the people that would eventually populate the earth crash landed and began using tree leaves as currency.  Naturally, inflation and devaluation was out of control.

Yes. I agree with you. Why are you trying to argue with me? 

Im really not phoxy lady.  I posted right as I was leaving work and even thought, on the ride home, that I should edit to add that i didn't mean to presume that you didn't already understand all of this, and apologize if I sounded patronizing, and then I sat in traffic for an hour and promptly forgot once I got in the door.

[Phox]

I could argue those points, but the 'you can't eat gold' idea seems to be pretty strong in a lot of people.  To each their own. The demand is increasing despite the nay sayers.

So, why do you think central banks are buying the stuff at increasing rates?  Are they fools?

Artificial value =/= valuable in zombieland.

what do you mean by artificial value?

]and currencies were created to fix the problem in bartering of two things being exchanged having a different real value. 

That is precisely what I mean. The value placed on gold, silver, jewels, and paper currency is artificial/cultural. It's not intrinsic to the item, it's based on an assigned value

it's value of anything is assigned by the person who owns it, and value is set by how much another person is willing to work or trade for it.   I may have something you want and are willing to say: trade me by doing work equivalent to what we agree upon is a fair amount of work in exchange.  Lets say I don't need any work done, but know a guy who does need about the same amount of work you're offering me in exchange for my product, who also happens to have something of similar value that I want, it's simply a matter of giving you the thing you want if you agree to work for this other guy in exchange for what I want from him.  Your work has just been used as a currency, and we both agreed on what it was worth based on how much you were willing to do.   

In other words, the value of EVERYTHING is artificially set by the people exchanging it.  Metals were used because of their scarcity, or difficulty in obtaining easily, thus allowing them to retain a given value.  If you pick a currency that is easy to obtain, it will quickly loose value as everyone will be able to have it without expending any effort, or work. 

something like this was in part of The Hitchhikers Guide, when the ship carrying the people that would eventually populate the earth crash landed and began using tree leaves as currency.  Naturally, inflation and devaluation was out of control.

Yes. I agree with you. Why are you trying to argue with me? 

Im really not phoxy lady.  I posted right as I was leaving work and even thought, on the ride home, that I should edit to add that i didn't mean to presume that you didn't already understand all of this, and apologize if I sounded patronizing, and then I sat in traffic for an hour and promptly forgot once I got in the door.

Is all good. 

[Cain]

Gold is only useful in an economic collapse for Austrian "economists" to masturbate over.

[Elder Iptuous]

Gold is only useful in an economic collapse for Austrian "economists" to masturbate over.

i was supposed to wait for the collapse before i do that?! 

[Cain]

Point.  Strictly speaking, the only time Austrian economists dont masturbate over gold is when they are asleep, or trying to acquire viagra.

[Laughin Jude]

Of course, they dream about gold and wake up sticky.

[Bruno]

I thought Austrians were into crystals and shit.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

I thought Austrians were into crystals and shit.

No, youre thinking of New Age scatophiles.

[Laughin Jude]

One time my shitcrystals built up so bad that I had to go to the doctor. Man I went through a lot of Vasoline that month.

[Kai]

I look forward to the day when these people will realize that, aside from being rare and looking pretty, gold is largely useless. It's too soft to be durable, too rare to be economical, and has comparable conductive properties to much more common metals.

If people were smart, they'd be investing in copper.