Shyness vs. gynophobia

[Don Coyote]

I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.

A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them. "Falling in love" is a chemical state. Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love. A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.

TROOF

That first part is just chemicals. Chemicals lose potency. Which is probably also why there are serial monogamists. They are chasing a new high.

Love Infatuation is a drug.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.

A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them. "Falling in love" is a chemical state. Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love. A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.

TROOF

That first part is just chemicals. Chemicals lose potency. Which is probably also why there are serial monogamists. They are chasing a new high.

Love Infatuation is a drug.

Brain studies by biological anthropologist Helen Fisher show that if you are a secure person with good self-esteem and you find a good match to make a love commitment to, the "in love" parts of your brain stay stimulated for the duration of the relationship. Isn't that something? I find it incredibly hopeful.

[Don Coyote]

I see what you're saying, Nigel...a person with healthy self-esteem obviously isn't going to put up with certain things, like abuse, chronic alcoholism, chronially out-of-work guys. And there's nothing inherently wrong with saying "I want a family at some point and I'm going to make that a priority". I just find it odd that these people throw the L word around so much. Didn't TGRR once define it as "the state or condition of caring about somebody more than you care about yourself"? Not out of low self-esteem, any more than you put your kids first out of low self-esteem. It's just the way it is. You don't grant it to somebody who's going to turn you into a human speed bump, there has to be some trust involved, but it involves accepting a person exactly the way they are without trying to force-fit them to some anachronistic relationship mold.

A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them. "Falling in love" is a chemical state. Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love. A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.

TROOF

That first part is just chemicals. Chemicals lose potency. Which is probably also why there are serial monogamists. They are chasing a new high.

Love Infatuation is a drug.

Brain studies by biological anthropologist Helen Fisher show that if you are a secure person with good self-esteem and you find a good match to make a love commitment to, the "in love" parts of your brain stay stimulated for the duration of the relationship. Isn't that something? I find it incredibly hopeful.

No shit?

[Thurnez Isa]

girls have cooties

[Don Coyote]

girls have cooties

That is why I stay away from girls.

[*GrumpButt*]

girls have cooties

No shit we do. You need the cootie shot damn it.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

A person with healthy self-esteem won't put up with life with someone who is fundamentally incompatible with them, either. Even if they love them.

Well, no. But we tend to be whammied by the people with similar views to ours. I was trying to say that there would be some points where compromise would be in order. And this is good because a little friction is good...being with somebody who agreed with you totally on every last thing would be boring.

"Falling in love" is a chemical state.

There goes the romance...

Making a life commitment to love is something you should do not because you "fall in love" (because that can happen over and over and over again for as long as you're alive) but because you know you have found a good match for your love.

I'm a little confused here...how can it be anything substantial enough to call "love" (as opposed to infatuation/attraction, codependency, etc.)  if it's not a good match?

A LOT of people stay together miserably because they're "in love" when they would be happier if they moved on and found a COMPATIBLE partner to fall in love with.

Disagree. They think they're in love, it's something else.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Oh, ok, Coyote already named it. Love Infatuation. 
Just now saw that...

Semantics ITT.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I really have no patience for the semantical bullshit people try to confuse the issue with. Here:

http://www.ted.com/talks/helen_fisher_tells_us_why_we_love_cheat.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/helen_fisher_studies_the_brain_in_love.html

[Payne]

I've always had a large number of my friends being female, although as friends I've never been able to consider any of them particularly super close. I don't have a shyness around them in general terms but as soon as I get to soul baring, I can do that more easily with guys and a very small number of women.

It always made dating a difficult thing, and every time I've had deeper involvement with women it seems to have grown out of some kind of communal social gathering where I had a bit to drink and happened to be in a pretty good mood. It was slightly different with Pixie of course, as we didn't anywhere near hook up at the DoD - we just kinda built on that online till it caught fire months later.

With regards to the older man / younger woman gig, there is some small amount of biology in that, but to my mind it really is very much the commodisation of sex. Mostly a "product" for self validation and a status symbol to other men. Or so I believe, having never actively pursued a woman for sexual ends.

[LMNO]

I give up.

Hmm. Let me try to explain.

OP referred to ugly men blaming women for not wanting them sexually. I called this externalizing/projecting. OP pointed out that the solution was in the mirror. I called that internalizing. Mrs LMNO pointed out that overdoing that internalization could lead to self-hate, anorexia, bulimia, etc.

[BabylonHoruv]

In my observation (I've been very interested in shy men for probably about eight to ten years) the best thing you could do to get over your fear of approaching women is to go to bars and parties, and make eye contact and smile.

And just talk to them. Just say hi, or make a comment on the beer or the decor or someone's sweater. Don't hit on them, just talk. Hitting on women is a horrible way to meet women, anyway. Also, staring. No. Never stare. This might sound obvious but I had a friend who was a virgin at 38, and I actually had to tell him that staring at people creeps them the fuck out. Most shy people don't have that problem though; they have the opposite problem.

Here's the thing. You WILL experience rejection. Some women will assume you're hitting on them and will give you the brush off. But you'll also find that very often, after you've made eye contact and smiled (also a good way to make friends with same-sex people) at someone who is an appropriate match for you, in your ball-park in terms of age and beauty and culture (perhaps another terminally awkward hipster) they'll come and talk to you.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't even know how to find out about parties. The very concept of a "party" is alien to me.

ETA: That "HAHAHAHAHA" bit wasn't to be rude or throw your advice back in your face or anything, by the way. That was horrormirth. I have finally realized exactly how pathetic I am. Thank you. That's sincere, too. I need to know the truth if I ever want to change anything.

You could go out to a bar, it's not quite a party, but it is a social situation.

[BabylonHoruv]

Nigel nailed it. 

I think there's a flipside, though, and I see a lot of it in my work (psychic line - ducks blows)...a lot of women view men, or rather marriage, as a commodity. They look for boyfriends like they're interviewing prospective employees (he has to make X-amount of money and be tall and blah blah) and they seem to have some kind of time frame for marriage, they'll dump a guy who doesn't live up to it because he "won't commit". All very businesslike but they consider it "love".

It seems to me that if you care enough about somebody that you'd even consider being tied to them for any length of time, you'd work out whatever was mutually agreeable and that would involve compromise...probably just live together or see each other and if you don't have a piece of paper, so what?

I could see all this in the 19th century or something when the alternative to hitting the husband lottery wahttp://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=1043756;topic=29115.0;num_replies=13;sesc=9f10863cc36962420be928aa5099117ds indentured servitude as a governess or something like that, but it doesn't seem very thought out these days...

I had a coworker like that. It was the weirdest fucking thing. It was totally alien to my way of thinking. Bit of background info: she was 27 ish, from Michigan, and I believe, Methodist, but I could be wrong about that.

She and another coworker were dating when they started working there. I guess she kinda pressured him into proposing. They were engaged for a while and she kept talking about the time frame for having a baby, which meant getting to work on it immediately. Surprise of surprises, he called off the wedding. She didn't seem sad so much as angry.

Anyway, she eventually started talking about this other guy at her church and she was talking about him like she was engaged to him. Like, she was definitely going to marry him, and she was going to have his babies. Turns out they weren't even dating yet. She was scoping him out as a sperm donor. Well, anyway she did start dating him, they did get married and they have a kid. We met the husband to be a couple of times. He looked like a deer caught in headlights. It was the weirdest thing to watch. Apparently she had been engaged before the broken off engagement too.


As far as the old dudes go- Men of all ages want to have sex with attractive women between the ages of 18 and 24. This is a constant whether your 12 or in the nursing home. The problem comes in when they realistically can't accept that they're old/fat/bald/weird looking/creepy. If I find myself single and 40, and can't snag other 40 somethings, I'm going to have a look at my self and see what I'm doing wrong, since I'm the common factor in my failure to find someone to be with. I don't know why a middle aged guy would want to date someone who is just fresh out of college anyway. They're going to be in way different places in their lives and won't look at the world in the same way.

I'm 33 and I honestly find women between 27 and 40 to be more physically attractive than women between 18 and 24, the 18-24 year olds look like children to me, and although I sometimes am attracted I feel uncomfortable and pederasty about it.

[Jasper]

I'm only 24 now and I've seen 19 year olds who I would have been extremely bothered about if I was younger, but just was not interested because they were too youthful. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I give up.

Hmm. Let me try to explain.

OP referred to ugly men blaming women for not wanting them sexually. I called this externalizing/projecting. OP pointed out that the solution was in the mirror. I called that internalizing. Mrs LMNO pointed out that overdoing that internalization could lead to self-hate, anorexia, bulimia, etc.

The point of recognizing that the problem lies within is not to HATE yourself. The point is to CHANGE yourself... to grow, and to heal.