Prison Bans Books and Disco Pickle Learns a Lesson

[Disco Pickle]

Your politicizing criminal law a bit there.

Naw, I was making fun of an Objectivist.

I was always under the impression that law was reason free of emotion.

Are you also under the impression that the tooth fairy leaves money under your pillow?  That Santa Claus brings toys to all the good little girls and boys?  That, you know, we're all equal in the eyes of the law?

I did nothing that I was accused of, and the ONLY reason I am not in prison to this very day is that I could afford a lawyer with 5 rows of teeth (none of which are for chewing vegetables), and I could afford to travel to Illinois and back every time the prosecutor thought it would be funny to make me dance.

The person on their video was a foot shorter than me, olive-complected, with a bald spot that I don't have (I didn't buzz the head until after the trial), and it still took me tens of thousands of dollars, and two and a half years to deal with that shit.  

Reason free of emotion, my ass.  Have you ever even sat on a jury?

again, it's never going to be a perfect system.  ever.  It's still based on 2000 some odd years of thought on the matter.  Yes, emotion colors everything, even law.  It's not supposed to, but it does.  That's why there are checks in place to remove jurors who let their emotions decide before evidence is even presented, and to remove attorneys and judges who's personal opinions might color a verdict.  That's why there's an appeal process, so that level heads with no stake can take another assessment of the evidence.  

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Your politicizing criminal law a bit there.

Naw, I was making fun of an Objectivist.

I was always under the impression that law was reason free of emotion.

Are you also under the impression that the tooth fairy leaves money under your pillow?  That Santa Claus brings toys to all the good little girls and boys?  That, you know, we're all equal in the eyes of the law?

I did nothing that I was accused of, and the ONLY reason I am not in prison to this very day is that I could afford a lawyer with 5 rows of teeth (none of which are for chewing vegetables), and I could afford to travel to Illinois and back every time the prosecutor thought it would be funny to make me dance.

The person on their video was a foot shorter than me, olive-complected, with a bald spot that I don't have (I didn't buzz the head until after the trial), and it still took me tens of thousands of dollars, and two and a half years to deal with that shit.  

Reason free of emotion, my ass.  Have you ever even sat on a jury?

again, it's never going to be a perfect system.  ever.  It's still based on 2000 some odd years of thought on the matter.  Yes, emotion colors everything, even law.  It's not supposed to, but it does.  That's why there are checks in place to remove jurors who let their emotions decide before evidence is even presented, and to remove attorneys and judges who's personal opinions might color a verdict.  That's why there's an appeal process, so that level heads with no stake can take another assessment of the evidence.  

The system as it stands is not only not perfect, it's not functional.  Your innocence or guilt mean nothing.

I've been on both sides of the pitchfork (peace officer and accused criminal), and it's hell either way.

[Phox]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.

[Disco Pickle]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

You're Jose, walking down the street from school.  Two cops see you, having just responded to a robbery call.  You SORT OF fit the description, so hey, ho, you're face down on the back seat of the squad car, with a few new lumps, and the cops are holding a cheap gun you've never seen before, and grinning at you...Because their caseload just got easier, and they're gonna look good to the lieutenant. 

Now, that wasn't "random" from the cops' point of view, but from yours, it was random as hell.  And lots of other random shit is about to happen to you.  Oh, my, yes.

But that doesn't happen in America, right?  Cops never do that shit.  And DAs never just ramrod kids like that through, and judges never allow it, because they're totally not smashed on the vodka in their "water" glass.  No, sirree.

That has nothing to do with the question.  A crime was commited, a person was searched for that fit another person's description of that person.  Mistakes will happen.  Asshole cops will always be asshole cops.  Again, give me another alternative to consider.

[Thurnez Isa]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.

This town is strange in that you could pretty much smoke crack in the park across from the police department downtown and they wont care. I've actually got stoned in the police PARKING LOT in my youth, and no one cared. They don't care as long as your downtown where all the homeless people are and your not killing people your own your own.
If you so much as jaywalk or walk on the train tracks in the neighborhoods where people have front lawns the police throw a hissy fit. I could imagine what they are like in the gated community up on the hills.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

You're Jose, walking down the street from school.  Two cops see you, having just responded to a robbery call.  You SORT OF fit the description, so hey, ho, you're face down on the back seat of the squad car, with a few new lumps, and the cops are holding a cheap gun you've never seen before, and grinning at you...Because their caseload just got easier, and they're gonna look good to the lieutenant.  

Now, that wasn't "random" from the cops' point of view, but from yours, it was random as hell.  And lots of other random shit is about to happen to you.  Oh, my, yes.

But that doesn't happen in America, right?  Cops never do that shit.  And DAs never just ramrod kids like that through, and judges never allow it, because they're totally not smashed on the vodka in their "water" glass.  No, sirree.

That has nothing to do with the question.  A crime was commited, a person was searched for that fit another person's description of that person.  Mistakes will happen.  Asshole cops will always be asshole cops.  Again, give me another alternative to consider.

It has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE QUESTION.  Mistakes, my ass.  Ever heard of a "drop"?  A gun a policeman carries, with the serial numbers obliterated?  Or a little baggie of weed he "finds" in your trunk?  But that never happens.  Not all the fucking time.  Not in the land of the free.

Cops, as a rule, are not out to "solve the crime".  They are out to reduce their caseload.  This is especially true with detectives.  When a policeman tells you that you have the right to remain silent, you SHUT THE FUCK UP.  The only words you remember how to say are "I'd like a lawyer now, please.", NO MATTER WHAT THE COP SAYS, NO MATTER WHAT "DEALS" HE SAYS HE CAN'T MAKE IF YOU INVOLVE A LAWYER, and most ESPECIALLY if he asks "Do you think you NEED a lawyer?".

Another alternative, my hairy, diseased ass.  This is REALITY.  This is HOW THE SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORKS, no matter WHAT they told you in your criminal justice class.

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

DNA evidence....  really? 

Disco find my personal thread on more information than you want to know (on my phone, can't link) and go the the supreme court link.  After you read that come back and you and me, we'll fucking discuss our legal system, DNA and the rest of your wonderful ideas.

I love how people who don't really know dick about something can ramble on and on about it. 

I've lived it. Lost a life to it. And I was just a fucking bystander. I can't even imagine if I'd been the one on trial.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

DNA evidence....  really? 

Disco find my personal thread on more information than you want to know (on my phone, can't link) and go the the supreme court link.  After you read that come back and you and me, we'll fucking discuss our legal system, DNA and the rest of your wonderful ideas.

I love how people who don't really know dick about something can ramble on and on about it. 

I've lived it. Lost a life to it. And I was just a fucking bystander. I can't even imagine if I'd been the one on trial.

Apparently, that was a "decision" you made.

Fucking objectivists.

[East Coast Hustle]

I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned.  Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"

Oh, I'm sorry, I had been addressing you as though you were a biped. Now that I see this, I won't continue to make that mistake.

[Disco Pickle]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.

If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked.  I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.

while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.  

So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.  

I believe I'm starting to really understand now.  It's terrifying btw.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.

If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked.  I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.

while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.  

So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.  

I believe I'm starting to really understand now.  It's terrifying btw.

Oh, yeah, that stuff happens in smudgy, unfurnished countries...But not here.  Ho ho!

[East Coast Hustle]

The only difference between here and a place like Mexico is that in the good old US of A, you need to add an extra zero or three to the bribe amount.

Now stop flapping your gums as though you even have the slightest fucking clue what you're talking about, please. You're obviously intent on ignoring the REALITY of our legal system in favor of some Houghton-Mifflin 6th grade civics class textbook.

[Disco Pickle]

But that presentation completely leaves out the fact that the only way to end up in the system is to break laws that are on the books.

By now, there's probably a few hundred people who have been released on DNA evidence who would disagree with that.

Khara, I was responding directly to this.  

I don't subscribe to randomness where humans are concerned.  Much as I don't consider car wrecks to be "accidents"

Oh, I'm sorry, I had been addressing you as though you were a biped. Now that I see this, I won't continue to make that mistake.

yuk it up and provide no information to refute.  I assert that no action any person can take can ever be considered to be random.  Fuck, not even a computer program has been written that can be considered to produce a result that is truly random.  It's all probability.  

But yeah, go ahead and dismiss my point with nothing at all.  Hell, I laughed.  I find myself agreeing with you more than anyone else on this site, but that's because you just don't give a fuck, and I aspire to be more like that.

[Phox]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.

If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked.  I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.

while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.  

So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.  

I believe I'm starting to really understand now.  It's terrifying btw.

No, no. You tell me how to figure out what these morons are doing. You tell me how to avoid getting hit by a snow plow. You tell me how that guy with that gun in that poor woman's face is going to react if he sees me looking at him. You tell me whether or not that state trooper is going to pull me over for swerving slightly. You tell me when that cyclist plans on illegally turning into the crosswalk without so much as a courtesy brake. What's the secret, Pickles? I'd like a complete list of rules for human behavior, if you please. Hell, I'd like it if you don't please.

[Disco Pickle]

Stopped right there. For this reason, your opinion cannot be taken seriously. Them's the breaks.

then please, tell me all you know of causality and how it relates to humans and their actions, their election of lawmakers, and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country.  

I'd like just one example of a human doing something that could be ever be thought of as being "random"

If that sounds dickish, it's not intended.  I really am learning from you guys.  I'm not just some "right wing nutjob" as the good Rev. insists.

Causality? Whatcha want? Deontological philosophy? Sorry, I've seen enough to figure out that there isn't a grand set of rules to follow in terms of human behavior. Predictable patterns of behavior don't exist, because if they did, deviations would be far rarer and there wouldn't be so many variables that affect it. As for the election of lawmakers and the enforcement and adjudication of laws in this country? Fuck, I could pay off the cops in this town with what's in my pocket, a smile, and a short skirt and get off scott free for anything short of murder. Faith in the system? Not me.

If predictable patterns of behavior didn't exist then car insurance companies would be right proper fucked.  I believe there's another thread about this sort of thing that Nigel started.

while I've no doubt and even evidence that happens here, it's hardly on par with a country like say Mexico, where a $20 got me out of a potentially bad situation and another one got me over the border from Belize.  

So you must have lost faith in any system devised by humans.  

I believe I'm starting to really understand now.  It's terrifying btw.

Oh, yeah, that stuff happens in smudgy, unfurnished countries...But not here.  Ho ho!

jebus fuck, I never said it DIDN'T HAPPEN.  Sometimes, I think you argue just to argue.

What, you think the "wrong people" don't get railroaded in countries where the melanin in your skin puts you in the minority?

name me a country that does it better for crimes against person or property.