Curious about a concept in the BIP

[Telarus]

Yeah, we don't have 'founders'. We have certain spags who we label 'old skool', some of which are dead. All of which probably read the copies of the PD that were printed on Jim Garrison's mimeograph machine before the JFK trail even happened.

Which is cool weird history, and the Discordia transmitted to us (in the buddhist sense, I guess) wouldn't be the same without each and every one of those spags. But unlike the static buddhist bureaucracy, we're not concerned with transmitting 'unaltered teachings' to the future. We're concerned with FUCKING WITH THE NOW.

"Fuck! If I knew this shit was going to work, I'd have picked Aphrodite!" - Kerry Thornely, aka the Bull Goose of Limbo

[El Sjaako]

Actually, there is a really clear-cut way to become a discordian:

http://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Member-of-the-Discordian-Society

It's the one true path™.

[Triple Zero]

The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson

Got a source for this quote?

There we have RAW chiming in about it.  From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.

Got a source for this point of view?

Besides the previous quote, I mean, which is why I asked where the quotes are from cause when RAW says "rival gangs of shamans", he's not necessarily exactly talking about traditional shamanism. Rather some neoshaman chaos magick hippie "if you look at it from exactly this angle, it's JUST almost like shamans, you know [pass the bong]" point of view.

To draw the conclusion that therefore he thought "Discordianism is a form of Shamanism" is pretty far fetched, IMO. You may believe it, of course.

But if you ask me, he said it cause he thought it'd make a cool quote. Never for people to dissect and draw conclusions from. Especially since the quote is about the line between Real and Unreal, and not about shamans. He could have said "mages" or "popes" and mean the same thing.

BTW what does "rival gangs of shamans" even MEAN? In the context of traditional shamanism, WTF is a "gang of shamans"? And then rival gangs? So there's more than one? Did that EVER happen? I thought they'd prefer to sit in their animal suits being spiritual leaders in their tribes. No way they're going to form a GANG without having a tribe to look down upon.

If you want to know what "rival gangs of shamans" really means, it's probably more like depicted in the Invisibles.

Before you go "HA! That's exactly what I meant!", I'd like to remind you that the Invisibles is a work of fiction, a comic book, and you can't actually change reality by taking a dose of LSD and painting squiggles in your room.

He also said "Discordianism is like herding cats" (or maybe he didn't). According to your reasoning, if we're going to take all of this at face value, RAW believed Shamanism is a form of herding cats.

I do believe, however, that Shamanism is just like Taoism in a clown suit. I just skimmed Wikipedia on it, especially the clown suit part fits rather well.

You can't use out of context RAW quotes to pretend Discordianism is a form of Shamanism. If you want to argue, you can explain what Shamanism is (according to you) first, and what "form" it must take in order to be alike Discordianism.

[Triple Zero]

I just realized, this is Wyldkat, comparing Discordianism and Shamanism:

Some guy, walking up to a Biker Gang and says "Hey guys, I was just reading your website, the advice section on the correct motorcycle repair and mechanics. All that technical stuff, it reminded me a lot of miniature train modelling. Is what you guys do anything like that?"

[AFK]

Welcome to Discordia. "Founder" just means they happened to write some cool stuff that inspired other stuff. Many folsk here have never read anything by the 'founders'.

Also interesting.  I understood that Discordia was to each his own and think for yourself, but I'm surprised that people would group themselves in any group without researching it, if not first then soon after getting interested in it.  My own prejudice showing I guess.  I am big on researching things that interest me.  Doesn't it make it hard when there are no necessarily common points of reference?

Speaking as someone who has only read the PD and would never touch any RAW, I've done plenty of research.  It's called "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!"  I don't need some old grizzled, dead LSD wizard to enlighten my views or perceptions of Discordia.  The PD basically awakened me to something I alreay knew and felt.  It's something that always existed within me even back when I was a Baptist.  I just finally was able to put a name to it.  So the only research I really had to do was within the confines of my BIP.  My research was to discover my bars and to figure out where I wanted to go. 

[AFK]

All this thread was about was a similarity I noticed between what I had learned over the years in my study of shamanism (only brought shamanism up because that's where I learned it) and a concept I had read here on PD.  I did my research before posting, read the BIP and PD which seemed to confirm what I had previously noticed, so I posted hoping that someone who was more well versed in the subject from the Discordian end would be willing to do some compare contrast so that I could get a better handle on all of it.

Perhaps your "confirmation" is a result of you falling victim to the Law of Fives.  You are filtering out that which would invalidate your theory that BIP = Shamanism. 

Also, to those who say the BIP wasn't intended to teach, any written or spoken word can teach even if that is not the intent of the author or speaker.  Shedding light on a subject is a method of teaching a person about it.

Except you seemed to be using the word "teach" as in "to instruct".  That we were telling the reader how to do something.  We weren't.  I think it is made fairly clear throughout the book that intent was more to be a cold splash of water to the face.  The idea wasn't to say, "Hey, you're fucking up and this is how you should be doing it."  It was more, "You do realize you are fucking up right?  Pay attention and look at your options!"

[AFK]

In the BiP you are the prisoner and the guard, and the walls and bars and everything else... the only person that can 'free' you is you.

I go with the thinking that there is no real escape, just an occasional escape of a defective idea.

Thus 'free' in quotes... myself, I tend to see the 'escape' as realizing that limitations aren't always prisons

The self-imposed limitations are.  And that is where, IMO, the "jailbreak" meme comes into play.  To break free from the self-imposed limits.  But you can never escape the prison proper unless you find a way to transcend your humanity.  But you're right in that this isn't a negative.  In fact, it is a positive when you realize there is so much more real estate to explore. 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Speaking as someone who has only read the PD and would never touch any RAW, I've done plenty of research.  It's called "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!"  I don't need some old grizzled, dead LSD wizard to enlighten my views or perceptions of Discordia.  The PD basically awakened me to something I alreay knew and felt.  It's something that always existed within me even back when I was a Baptist.  I just finally was able to put a name to it.  So the only research I really had to do was within the confines of my BIP.  My research was to discover my bars and to figure out where I wanted to go. 

If he ever DID say it, I'm guessing it's BECAUSE he was an old grizzled LSD wizard, and he might've been using it interchangably with "psychonaut", i.e., exploring consciousness. Which is what people like RAW did with drugs back in the old days before using them to get stupid came into vogue.

[East Coast Hustle]

I found it interesting to find the idea that we are all in our own separate prison (mental construct of the world, whatever a person wishes to call it) here.  I honestly hadn't expected it since many people seem to be so reactive to other people's thoughts and opinions.  That part goes directly counter the concept I learned.

Translation: I have viewed this through my grid and made it into something with shamanizm and teachers and stuff. I am looking for stuff you gais consider authoritative so I can do you like I do the tards at TCC. This might fit the bill, that's why I started this thread. Now Imma pull the WHY DO YOU CALL ME ON MY BULLSHIT WHEN EVERBUDDY JUST SEES THINGS AS A CONSTRUCT ANYWAYS? card. Hyuk, hyuk.

Fuck yes. Thread over.

[East Coast Hustle]

The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson


There we have RAW chiming in about it.  From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.

(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.

Are you mentally retarded? No, seriously. Speak for your own discordianism all the fuck you want, but my discordianism has fuck-all to do with RAW or Thornley. Thornley, FYI, founded the POEE, which was one sect of discordianism.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah, we don't have 'founders'. We have certain spags who we label 'old skool', some of which are dead. All of which probably read the copies of the PD that were printed on Jim Garrison's mimeograph machine before the JFK trail even happened.

We DO have titles, but nobody wants them.  For example, I am The Last of the Ancient Wiseguys, and all that means HERE is that I am considered prime mugging material.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson


There we have RAW chiming in about it.  From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.

(For WK's benefit and any others not familiar with the history of Discordianism he's one of the founders of Discordianism, along with Kerry Thornley and some others.

Are you mentally retarded? No, seriously. Speak for your own discordianism all the fuck you want, but my discordianism has fuck-all to do with RAW or Thornley. Thornley, FYI, founded the POEE, which was one sect of discordianism.

Horuv's been kissing arse on the TCC mob forever, dude.  Give it up.

And Babylon?  Holy Quest Failed.  This boot-licking was NOT what was intended.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You should have hung out at the old AAW MSN freechat room, Wyldkat. The "twelfth generation Strega" who didn't know what fucking country that path comes from and the white trash in Montana practicing 'authentic voodoo' would have left you rolling.

*twitches*  yeouch...  Really?  Claimed 12th generation and didn't know the country of origin?  Wow..........

I have horror stories, Wyldkat. SCARY ONES. People who actually research their bullshit before rolling in it are a rarity.

We had dozens of teenage girls coming in daily, freshly turned to the path of love and light. One of them broke down in tears on a webcam chat with another chatter because someone said the word 'fuck' and the 'bad karma' that created would wipe out entire litters of kittens.

I shit you not.

And that isn't even covering people who don't read simply because they want to take a concept and run with it on their own. No, no. This is just talking about the 'true believers'.

I'm sort of glad and disappointed that most of those never hit TCC long enough to post.  I guess I've gotten spoiled by living in the geek commune and doing the whole read and think for yourself bit for so long with people who email me.

Are you fucking shitting me? That's EXACTLY what most of the TCC membership I've seen is. I've never been ignored so hard as when I have pointed out that the idiocy most of them spew over there bears no resemblance to and/or directly contradicts the writings of the people who founded the religions they're pretending to follow.

IMO that's why other Neopagans can't stand Discordians... our religion is the only cohesive, consistent Neopagan religion.

[BabylonHoruv]

The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill.
Robert Anton Wilson

Got a source for this quote?

There we have RAW chiming in about it.  From his point of view Discordianism is a form of Shamanism.

Got a source for this point of view?

Besides the previous quote, I mean, which is why I asked where the quotes are from cause when RAW says "rival gangs of shamans", he's not necessarily exactly talking about traditional shamanism. Rather some neoshaman chaos magick hippie "if you look at it from exactly this angle, it's JUST almost like shamans, you know [pass the bong]" point of view.

To draw the conclusion that therefore he thought "Discordianism is a form of Shamanism" is pretty far fetched, IMO. You may believe it, of course.

But if you ask me, he said it cause he thought it'd make a cool quote. Never for people to dissect and draw conclusions from. Especially since the quote is about the line between Real and Unreal, and not about shamans. He could have said "mages" or "popes" and mean the same thing.

BTW what does "rival gangs of shamans" even MEAN? In the context of traditional shamanism, WTF is a "gang of shamans"? And then rival gangs? So there's more than one? Did that EVER happen? I thought they'd prefer to sit in their animal suits being spiritual leaders in their tribes. No way they're going to form a GANG without having a tribe to look down upon.

If you want to know what "rival gangs of shamans" really means, it's probably more like depicted in the Invisibles.

Before you go "HA! That's exactly what I meant!", I'd like to remind you that the Invisibles is a work of fiction, a comic book, and you can't actually change reality by taking a dose of LSD and painting squiggles in your room.

He also said "Discordianism is like herding cats" (or maybe he didn't). According to your reasoning, if we're going to take all of this at face value, RAW believed Shamanism is a form of herding cats.

I do believe, however, that Shamanism is just like Taoism in a clown suit. I just skimmed Wikipedia on it, especially the clown suit part fits rather well.

You can't use out of context RAW quotes to pretend Discordianism is a form of Shamanism. If you want to argue, you can explain what Shamanism is (according to you) first, and what "form" it must take in order to be alike Discordianism.

He's definitely not talking about traditional shamanism, neither is the OP.  

I'd say that the invisibles is a pretty good depiction of rival gangs of shamans, so is the Illuminatus trilogy for that matter, both being fiction, and both being fairly Discordian.

I am having a terrible time sourcing the quote, but I have read the book it is from,  I think it is Schroedinger's cat.  


I really think those of you insisting we have no founders are being pretentious.  They're founders because they did it first.  Sure, we do things very differently than they did, and just because RAW or Thornley had some opinion that doesn't mean any other Discordian does or should.  Thornley went batshit crazy after all and made a giant mess of his life.  He still founded Discordianism.  Like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson etc founded the US, or Crowley founded Thelema, or Gardner founded Wicca.  The founders set out the initial ideas and coined the term.  Discordianism is generally neophilic, so the founders are way less influential than they would be with something more neophobic, but they still founded the damn thing.

Roger, I have defended Wyldkat, I haven't kissed the ass of any other elder or member of TCC.  

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Payne is building the correct motorcycle.