Icarus

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

Alrighty, I've seen a few things on the board and I have a topic I wanted to develop I touched on earlier.

Ground Rule:  This is not 4chan, duh, so cut the crap.  If you know a meme, saying it aloud to others that are sure to understand it does not make one a hopeless chantard, nor does saying "anonymous" so lets attempt to grow past that for a few moments.

Alright, here's the press release:

http://www.thehackernews.com/2011/03/operation-icarus-will-anonymous-shut.html

edit: the release is reposted below because hacker news is not liked by most PC virus software (as you might expect).  Sorry for the shit link

I'm just linking it because it's really long and I don't think we have collapsible tags as far as I can tell.

It's more Anon rhetoric designed to rile the masses, as is expected.

The problem I have with this is the personal responsibility aspect of it.

It has been duly noted that innocent bystandards are considered acceptable loss in this operation, and that's where I take issue with it.

I was there for Habbo Hotel, Scientology and a shit ton of others, but this one is different.  Innocent people's livelihoods and retirement are on the line.

It brings to mind that quote "before the revolution, man exploited man, but since then, it's all gotten turned around"

Doing this is not going to end greed and oppression.  I'm all for hitting proper targets in the nuts, but once you start claiming innocent bystandards as acceptable loss you are, by definition, a terrorist.

To allow for the kind of real liberty or freedom where even total scumfuck cretins are allowed to prosper side by side with decent folk, with all the same rights, we must all decide to be held accountable.  This isn't being held accountable.  This is being a terrorist with a mask.  Even if it has a societal gain for the downtrodden, it's not fixing the problem, it's just changing the hand the glove is on.

I hate the monarch scumbags at NYSE too, but there is better ways too deal with this, and they aren't even all pleasant or politically correct.  I agree something still needs to be done, but hitting innocent bystandards is not at all cool with me.


It reminds me of that poem:

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

The key function I have a problem with here is that they aren't proposing a model for a new way of life, just promising one the same way the current institution does.  If anonymous becomes any kind of institution it gains the flaw inherent to being a system:  That it will be exploited, and I'm starting to think that's what's happening.


These are just my views of course, and they are subject to your scrutiny.

I guess my question is then, if Anonymous is a discordian ideal (I tend to think it is, ymmv) then as a discordian, where do you draw the line in the sand?  When does morality come into play and how do you resolve that with your discordian views?

How do you feel about the Icarus Op?

[Luna]

Tried to check the link, Norton had a shitfit.

http://safeweb.norton.com/report/show?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.thehackernews.com%2F2011%2F03%2Foperation-icarus-will-anonymous-shut.html

[Faust]

I couldn't check the link because of the net nanny but you are right, it's not a new thing of these attacks being poorly thought out in terms of who will really bear the brunt of it. I had objections to the repeated attacks on Sony by Lulzsec because of the following.
The company makes a huge financial loss because of loss of sales, money that needed to be pumped into contractors to fix the security gap and from loss of trust of its userbase.

Companies like Sony aren't going to bear the brunt of those costs at the top. They are going to cut hours, lay off people and generally tighten the amount of money they put back into the community...
A community that recently bore the brunt of an earthquake, tsunami and nuclear meltdown.
The only way that country is going to get restored is through global sales and exports, they need money and that's the long and short of it. Repeatedly attacking one of the countries largest industry is nothing short of attacking the victims of the disasters over there.

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

Pretty much any site carrying the news is a hacker news site, so I'll just repost the crap:

youtube vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBW8dGfZY5g

Release...

Operation Icarus
Attention Brothers: Charge your lasers and aim them at the the New York Stock Exchange. (NYSE.com)

It has been said that humanity is not an end in itself but rather a means to an end. We have shown the world our strength to deny ignorance, overcome adversity, fight oppression and even the power to throw a wrench in the system that perpetuates it. We are enslaved within a matrix of institutions with the illusion that each stands alone, each fighting for power, for profits, for the scraps on the table that represent humanities dwindling resources. In reality however, these institutions; the arms industries, banking and other financial institutions, government intelligence agencies and countless others have formed what was once a clandestine coalition whose corruption and avarice have become increasingly transparent due to wikileaks and the efforts of anonymous. This coalition seeks the preservation and the perpetuation of the powers that be and this octopus operates through the tentacles of the IMF, the Federal Reserve and the World Bank, masterminded by think tanks such as the Bilderberg group and the Council on Foreign Relations.
The puppets of the powers that be include the president of the united states and his cabinet, and through them they are able to repress the freedom of information and with it the free and open exchange of ideas which are fundamental to the existence and operations of anonymous and the ability to see beyond the veil of secrecy from which the powers that be stand behind. But where does the power behind the throne lie? Within the global financial system, centered within the New York stock exchange.

They feel secure in their ivory tower built on the broken backs of the laborers of the world for what are their subjects but human...all too human. In humanity lies the restraints of pity and mercy, driven by fear. But We are not merely human. Anonymous is something much more for we possess neither fear nor mercy. It is time to show the world the true power and the true face of the faceless, the nameless and the ghosts of society.
Like Icarus, the powers that be have flown too close to the sun and the time has come to set the wings of their empire ablaze and watch the system their power relies on come to a grinding halt and come crashing down around them. We must strike at the heart of their empire by once again throw a wrench into the machine, but this time we face a much bigger target; the global financial system. This time our target is the New York Stock Exchange. (NYSE.com)
This is a call to arms my brothers who for too long have stood for nothing but have criticized everything. Stand now, behind the banner of free men against the tyrannical matrix of institutions that oppose us. Ready your weapons and aim them at the New York Stock Exchange. This is the operation to end all others. Innocent people may stand to lose something from this but the powers that be stand to lose much more. Bring the rain brothers.
We are Anonymous
We are Legion
We do not forgive
We do not forget
Expect Us.

[Luna]

Faust has the right of it.

The attitude of "oh, well, innocent people are gonna get hurt" is about as wrong as it gets.

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

I couldn't check the link because of the net nanny but you are right, it's not a new thing of these attacks being poorly thought out in terms of who will really bear the brunt of it. I had objections to the repeated attacks on Sony by Lulzsec because of the following.
The company makes a huge financial loss because of loss of sales, money that needed to be pumped into contractors to fix the security gap and from loss of trust of its userbase.

Companies like Sony aren't going to bear the brunt of those costs at the top. They are going to cut hours, lay off people and generally tighten the amount of money they put back into the community...
A community that recently bore the brunt of an earthquake, tsunami and nuclear meltdown.
The only way that country is going to get restored is through global sales and exports, they need money and that's the long and short of it. Repeatedly attacking one of the countries largest industry is nothing short of attacking the victims of the disasters over there.

Perhaps the tide is changing.  I got out when it ceased to be about the lulz, now it seems to be more about "who can we fuck up and whore the name anonymous to?"  without giving proper forethought in the slightest.

I remember this shit happened with $cientology and I fought hard to get them to endorse helping people on the inside get out with projects like the free scientology society thing I found (a religious group that shared the materials freely and didn't exploit one another, they were all kooks, but they weren't corrupt, I think they were called freezone or something) and I remember this being glanced over for weeks.  Originally the free scientology kooks were even on the list to get attacked.  It was just haphazard.  The problem was fixed by the time it was an issue, but like you said with sony, they just flat out failed to plan.

It's kind of pissing me off now that I think about it, like Einstein being blamed for the bomb.  It's totally unintended misuse of the premise of the product.  

If you want to be a freedom fighter you have to plan to not be a terrorist.

I suppose natural law dictates this kind of behavior is allowed to thrive, but I thought the whole purpose for buying into society at all was to prevent total chaos unleashed for the sake of everyone having more rights and by proxy a better quality of life than they might have if they were born in the cretaceous period.  Granted the only real right one has is to die, but without aspiring to something greater than that life seems awfully pointless.  Why fight in the army of anon if it is unjust, and how long until the just have to take arms against anon?  I don't like that thought.

Pardon the rant.

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

edit:

@faust:  Where the hell is that thing in your sig from, I'm totally dejavu-ing out to it, like it was from a dream or something.

[Faust]

edit:

@faust:  Where the hell is that thing in your sig from, I'm totally dejavu-ing out to it, like it was from a dream or something.

I dunno, i think it's from tumblr or something.

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

edit:

@faust:  Where the hell is that thing in your sig from, I'm totally dejavu-ing out to it, like it was from a dream or something.

I dunno, i think it's from tumblr or something.

This is going to haunt me until I find out. 


Awesome.

[Cain]

Meh, Anonymous have been targeting "innocent" people for years.

So have most of the companies and individuals trading on the NYSE.

Nothing changes if they succeed and nothing changes if they fail.

(Either way, calling it "terrorism" is kinda rich.  It's not like Anonymous are actually going to plant bombs in the offices of stockbrokers or send a hit squad in to teach Lloyd Blankfein you can really fuck someone's life up for the very cheap cost of 8 cents, rather than through crashing the world economy).

[Thurnez Isa]

Nothing changes if they succeed and nothing changes if they fail.

Gives censors more ammo

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

Meh, Anonymous have been targeting "innocent" people for years.

So have most of the companies and individuals trading on the NYSE.

Nothing changes if they succeed and nothing changes if they fail.

(Either way, calling it "terrorism" is kinda rich.  It's not like Anonymous are actually going to plant bombs in the offices of stockbrokers or send a hit squad in to teach Lloyd Blankfein you can really fuck someone's life up for the very cheap cost of 8 cents, rather than through crashing the world economy).

I suppose more accurately it would be "Financial Terrorism" so no it's not the same as flying planes intot the towers.

[Doktor Howl]

Meh, Anonymous have been targeting "innocent" people for years.

So have most of the companies and individuals trading on the NYSE.

Nothing changes if they succeed and nothing changes if they fail.

(Either way, calling it "terrorism" is kinda rich.  It's not like Anonymous are actually going to plant bombs in the offices of stockbrokers or send a hit squad in to teach Lloyd Blankfein you can really fuck someone's life up for the very cheap cost of 8 cents, rather than through crashing the world economy).

I suppose more accurately it would be "Financial Terrorism" so no it's not the same as flying planes intot the towers.

I don't see how it qualifies as terrorism at all.

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

the plan is drop wall street on it's ass.

ter·ror·ism   
[ter-uh-riz-uhm] 
–noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

sauce dictionary.com

[Doktor Howl]

the plan is drop wall street on it's ass.

ter·ror·ism   
[ter-uh-riz-uhm] 
–noun
1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

sauce dictionary.com

And how does what they do fall into any of those three catagories?

What they're doing is market manipulation. 

Unless you're one of those guys that wants to make every crime "terrorism", so we can two-step around due process?