The meaning of life - as communicated to me by Eris herself

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ooooh, I think I might have it. Suffering is when it's more than you can handle?

That's probably a good definition. If it's more than an annoyance or an inconvenience, and it causes mental anguish, then it is suffering.

I get hurt doing stupid shit all the time, but I don't suffer from it 99% of the time; it doesn't cause anguish. On the other hand, things have happened that did not physically hurt me, but caused anguish, and anguish is mental suffering.

Yup I can get behind that. So maybe instead of saying you need suffering I could have said you need a certain amount of pain/stress, the more the merrier up to a point?

Yes, I would agree that stress and challenge and a certain degree of pain are all necessary for development and happiness!

[P3nT4gR4m]

Some of the most inspiring people I've met or read about have been through things that I couldn't even imagine but it's make or break. One person may come out of an experience kick-ass cool and another might roll over and die. Kinda where I was going with the OP - it aint some kind of safe-environment day trip, it's fucking tough and only the tough survive but that's life.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Some of the most inspiring people I've met or read about have been through things that I couldn't even imagine but it's make or break. One person may come out of an experience kick-ass cool and another might roll over and die. Kinda where I was going with the OP - it aint some kind of safe-environment day trip, it's fucking tough and only the tough survive but that's life.

I've been through shit most people can't imagine and I may be a stronger person for it, but not necessarily a better or happier person. I can understand rolling over and dying, honestly.

I guess I have a problem with the idea that suffering makes you happier or better because I'm on the other side of that, and just, no. It's a little too close to "everything happens for a reason" and other vapid platitudes that are designed to make people feel better about a world that is just fucking brutal and monstrous.

You know what's awesome? Well-adjusted people who have dealt with challenges but never suffered from trauma. It's amazing how people like that are usually pretty nice to each other, and don't beat or rape each other or kill themselves with drugs.

[LMNO]

Pleased to meet ya!


LMNO
-Sheltered, Challenged, non-Traumatized.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Pleased to meet ya!


LMNO
-Sheltered, Challenged, non-Traumatized.

You seem both awesome and happy, and frankly, I would like to see a whole world full of you.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Some of the most inspiring people I've met or read about have been through things that I couldn't even imagine but it's make or break. One person may come out of an experience kick-ass cool and another might roll over and die. Kinda where I was going with the OP - it aint some kind of safe-environment day trip, it's fucking tough and only the tough survive but that's life.

I've been through shit most people can't imagine and I may be a stronger person for it, but not necessarily a better or happier person. I can understand rolling over and dying, honestly.

I guess I have a problem with the idea that suffering makes you happier or better because I'm on the other side of that, and just, no. It's a little too close to "everything happens for a reason" and other vapid platitudes that are designed to make people feel better about a world that is just fucking brutal and monstrous.

You know what's awesome? Well-adjusted people who have dealt with challenges but never suffered from trauma. It's amazing how people like that are usually pretty nice to each other, and don't beat or rape each other or kill themselves with drugs.

I've been through some pretty fucked up shit myself. Early childhood trauma blew up into full blown psychosis later in life, years of shit I'd defo describe as suffering (although some people may describe it as self indulgent wallowing) followed. If I could go back and choose not to have those experiences I don't think I would. In dealing with it I became stronger, that strength makes me happy.

Personally I don't buy into that "everything happens for a reason" bullshit either. Everything happens, you either rise above or you roll over. But you're right - the world is brutal and monstrous. That'll never change. Being strong is the safest way to deal with it. "Well-adjusted people who have dealt with challenges but never suffered from trauma" are always at risk of having something traumatic happen to them. I'd hate to be the age I am right now and not be able to deal with the kind of shit that, in my current position, I'd shrug off. The idea of that is truly horrific to me.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Some of the most inspiring people I've met or read about have been through things that I couldn't even imagine but it's make or break. One person may come out of an experience kick-ass cool and another might roll over and die. Kinda where I was going with the OP - it aint some kind of safe-environment day trip, it's fucking tough and only the tough survive but that's life.

I've been through shit most people can't imagine and I may be a stronger person for it, but not necessarily a better or happier person. I can understand rolling over and dying, honestly.

I guess I have a problem with the idea that suffering makes you happier or better because I'm on the other side of that, and just, no. It's a little too close to "everything happens for a reason" and other vapid platitudes that are designed to make people feel better about a world that is just fucking brutal and monstrous.

You know what's awesome? Well-adjusted people who have dealt with challenges but never suffered from trauma. It's amazing how people like that are usually pretty nice to each other, and don't beat or rape each other or kill themselves with drugs.

I've been through some pretty fucked up shit myself. Early childhood trauma blew up into full blown psychosis later in life, years of shit I'd defo describe as suffering (although some people may describe it as self indulgent wallowing) followed. If I could go back and choose not to have those experiences I don't think I would. In dealing with it I became stronger, that strength makes me happy.

Personally I don't buy into that "everything happens for a reason" bullshit either. Everything happens, you either rise above or you roll over. But you're right - the world is brutal and monstrous. That'll never change. Being strong is the safest way to deal with it. "Well-adjusted people who have dealt with challenges but never suffered from trauma" are always at risk of having something traumatic happen to them. I'd hate to be the age I am right now and not be able to deal with the kind of shit that, in my current position, I'd shrug off. The idea of that is truly horrific to me.

One standout statistic I've seen a bunch of times as I've been reading about trauma recovery is that people who are traumatized/victimized are, while strong in some ways, 80% more likely to end up in traumatizing situations again because we have damaged boundaries. People who have never been traumatized are actually MUCH better able to protect themselves from trauma and victimization, and better able to heal from it when it does happen.

It feels nice to tell ourselves fairy stories about how the bad shit we've gone through makes us superior, but it's not true. We're awesome because we made it through, but it didn't give us any special powers.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Yeah, I've heard about that kinda thing. Comes from not learning the lesson, maybe? Same thing with the - cycle of abuse - scenario. Those people are damaged. Surviving is easy (with luck factored in there). The hard bit is healing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yeah, I've heard about that kinda thing. Comes from not learning the lesson, maybe? Same thing with the - cycle of abuse - scenario. Those people are damaged. Surviving is easy (with luck factored in there). The hard bit is healing.

Trauma causes damage, partly in the form of a loss of self-confidence and boundaries. It's not "not learning the lesson". Part of it is when your high-alert switch gets stuck on "on", your body is reacting to everything as if it's danger, and you get used to living that way, so you don't have an alert to act differently when there really IS danger.

There are a lot of factors. A lot of things about your brain chemistry change when you're traumatized, and it can take a long time and a lot of work to repair them.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Yeah, I've heard about that kinda thing. Comes from not learning the lesson, maybe? Same thing with the - cycle of abuse - scenario. Those people are damaged. Surviving is easy (with luck factored in there). The hard bit is healing.

Trauma causes damage, partly in the form of a loss of self-confidence and boundaries. It's not "not learning the lesson". Part of it is when your high-alert switch gets stuck on "on", your body is reacting to everything as if it's danger, and you get used to living that way, so you don't have an alert to act differently when there really IS danger.

There are a lot of factors. A lot of things about your brain chemistry change when you're traumatized, and it can take a long time and a lot of work to repair them.

Couldn't agree more. But unless you put in that time and work you haven't healed, you're still there, in that shit place. Some people never make it out. Those people aren't the ones I'm identifying with when I say I feel my life made me better. I can sympathise, hell yeah, "There but for the grace..." and all that 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yeah, I've heard about that kinda thing. Comes from not learning the lesson, maybe? Same thing with the - cycle of abuse - scenario. Those people are damaged. Surviving is easy (with luck factored in there). The hard bit is healing.

Trauma causes damage, partly in the form of a loss of self-confidence and boundaries. It's not "not learning the lesson". Part of it is when your high-alert switch gets stuck on "on", your body is reacting to everything as if it's danger, and you get used to living that way, so you don't have an alert to act differently when there really IS danger.

There are a lot of factors. A lot of things about your brain chemistry change when you're traumatized, and it can take a long time and a lot of work to repair them.

Couldn't agree more. But unless you put in that time and work you haven't healed, you're still there, in that shit place. Some people never make it out. Those people aren't the ones I'm identifying with when I say I feel my life made me better. I can sympathise, hell yeah, "There but for the grace..." and all that 

But is this an aside, or is it anything to do with the OP? I'm confused. Trauma fucks people up, and some people heal and some people don't. I'm not sure whether you're just relating a personal anecdote, or trying to claim that trauma is beneficial in general, or what.

Because, seriously, there are things that if I could erase from my history, I absolutely would in a heartbeat, as well as the scars they left. That doesn't mean I haven't healed from them, but I don't think they made me a better person or benefitted me in any way, nor would I ever wish them on anyone else.

[P3nT4gR4m]

My OP was about the necessity of strife to provide a valid experience. Aside from the semantics surrounding "suffering" which I'm still not entirely sure we disagree on, my point is that the optimum amount of strife/suffering/pain would appear to be as much as you can take and still completely recover from. That isn't to say as much as you can take and still recover from in a week or a month, cos that aint much at all. All the other stuff, the good fun happiness stuff is more important as something to be striven for or remembered when you're in the pits of your own private hell. What I'm railing against is the notion of "happy ever after". Although that's the one thing that we all aim for and maybe it would be fun to spend the last few years there I honestly feel that a whole life like that would be empty and meaningless.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I can't agree about the optimum amount of suffering, but here are some thoughts on suffering that I wrote to Mr. Language yesterday, thought you might find them mildly relevant/interesting.

I wish I could help you! The world is a hard place to navigate. B and I
have been talking a lot lately about sadness, and how to manage it...
it's hard to get easy with sitting with it and just feeling it, and at
first it feels like it will be overwhelming, but it does help to do it.

Some people believe that everything happens for a reason. I don't; I
think that unhappy people do terrible things to other people, and there
is no reason, and no greater good. People treat the people they love
with cruelty, and there is no greater good. Famines happen, and there is
no greater good.

Sometimes, though, people do amazingly good things in the aftermath of a
terrible thing. It's not because it was meant be, to make them a better
person, or because they deserved it, or because they chose it, but
because if we can find the strength, we survive and grow and help other
people. I have to look for the happiness, because without it I'm
immobilized, ineffective. People do terrible things to each other, but
they do beautiful things too. When you strip us down we're just soft
warm vulnerable little animals.

Life has been hard, but it has made me resilient. None of the bad
happened to me for a reason, but I'm alive. My grief runs deep, but I
also have intense joy, because being able to touch my joy is the gift
that allowed me to survive. I'm often sad, but I'm also increasingly
aware that happiness is the thing that frees people and gives them the
strength to be good to each other, and if I can be happy and help people
to love themselves and be happy, then I'm doing the most good I can
possibly do. You may get so caught up in other people's suffering that
you forget that you deserve happiness too, but you do, just for being alive.

I feel like I'm kind of just babbling.  But anyway, that's how I try
to deal with the sadness.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There's also a letter I wrote to Dok Howl a few days ago that might be relevant... when he gets it, if it's OK with him, I'll post it.

I know that people can recover from some truly awful things, but that doesn't leave them better off for it. Otherwise, rapists and people who put cigarettes out on their children would be a blessed part of society.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I like it. It seems to me that this part

Sometimes, though, people do amazingly good things in the aftermath of a
terrible thing. It's not because it was meant be, to make them a better
person, or because they deserved it, or because they chose it, but
because if we can find the strength, we survive and grow and help other
people.

is where we might be at loggerheads. I see that as the coolest thing about life whereas you seem to see it as an unfortunate truth?

Otherwise, rapists and people who put cigarettes out on their children would be a blessed part of society.

That's why it's paradoxical. If you don't mind, let's leave things like fucked up sickos out of this (too emotive a subject) how about we stick to car crashes and earthquakes? They are neither blessed nor evil. They are just part of the cold, unfeeling nature of reality. They happen at random, for no reason beyond physics but, like it nor not, you'd have to accept that they provide an opportunity to grow, to become stronger, to maybe appreciate what you have a little more or to share a selfless act of compassion or heroism.

It aint precise, tho, it's just as likely you'll get caught in something that kills you or maybe fucks you up so bad you never bounce back. Let's face it, ultimately that's all you have to look forward to anyway. Like you said - it aint part of some divine plan, there's no safety net. However, without things like that everyone might be blissfully happy but what would be the fucking point?

The interesting thing for me is that this logic dictates that we should make it as hard as we can for our families and friends but basic human nature makes that ridiculous. Unless you're one of the fucked up sickos, that is. That's a paradox to me - we strive for this utopia that is actually the worst thing that could happen to us.

I guess I'm just a product of the world. I can't image a human race that works as holding any intrinsic value. Maybe faking it, maybe sport instead of war, maybe the quest for knowledge as opposed to the quest to ease the pain would be really cool but I can't for the life of me see it. Maybe I wish I could.