London Riots: An Alternate Juxtaposition

[Doktor Howl]

Disco, going back to my question --- do you think the filth of London would be in a better place right now if they had only pursued change through civil public discourse and letter writing?

and do you think there is a time when violent resistance is necessary? (for example, is Arab Spring going too far as well?)

If so, how do you tell the difference between a situation where you should make signs and a situation where you should strap some baguettes to your head and flip the fuck out?

Incidentally, that pic made my fucking year when it came out.

Dok,
Loves watching people lose their shit.

[Adios]

Disco, going back to my question --- do you think the filth of London would be in a better place right now if they had only pursued change through civil public discourse and letter writing?

and do you think there is a time when violent resistance is necessary? (for example, is Arab Spring going too far as well?)

If so, how do you tell the difference between a situation where you should make signs and a situation where you should strap some baguettes to your head and flip the fuck out?

Incidentally, that pic made my fucking year when it came out.

Dok,
Loves watching people lose their shit.

Ditto.

[Cramulus]

  seriously! Great photograph. It captures the wild and manic spirit that everybody was getting swept up by. Good illustration of a TAZ.

I'm sure the guy in the photo spends his weekdays at a normal job. And then s uddenly he's screaming his head off for the baguette revolution. Shows you just how fragile this reality is, no?

[Doktor Howl]

seriously! Great photograph. It captures the wild and manic spirit that everybody was getting swept up by. Good illustration of a TAZ.

I'm sure the guy in the photo spends his weekdays at a normal job. And then s uddenly he's screaming his head off for the baguette revolution. Shows you just how fragile this reality is, no?

Well, that's exactly it.

People are alive when they lose their shit.  That's one reason I do it so often¹.  If more people lost their shit when it's appropriate, the world would be a better place.


¹  The other reason is that I'm a horrible cunt.

[Disco Pickle]

Disco, going back to my question --- do you think the filth of London would be in a better place right now if they had only pursued change through civil public discourse and letter writing?

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

and do you think there is a time when violent resistance is necessary? (for example, is Arab Spring going too far as well?)

It's absolutely necessary at times.  The Arab Spring (just realized Charlie's ME was Middle East, duh) was certainly healthier, IMO.  But it's like I tell a few asshole neo-conservative types I know when they say things like "The US should support the revolts in the ME" and I have to ask them if they'd still be willing to maintain support if the groups that took power put in a theocracy, like Iran did in the 70's.  Most aren't.

If so, how do you tell the difference between a situation where you should make signs and a situation where you should strap some baguettes to your head and flip the fuck out?

I'm just not sure.  I'm hoping to learn.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

[Disco Pickle]

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

Ok, I understand that argument, but there are people who would go out and fuck shit up just to fuck shit up if they thought they could get away with it, and wouldn't need any more reason than they thought they could get away with it.  Those people exist, and there's maybe more of them than you're taking into consideration.  Those are the sorts I meant.

[ETA] The sort of human whose behavior elicits the "this is why we can't have nice things" meme.

[Adios]

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

I begin to suspect that he means smudgy people types.

[Elder Iptuous]

why would you suspect that?

[Don Coyote]

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

I begin to suspect that he means smudgy people types.

Isn't DP from Mexico?

[Adios]

why would you suspect that?

Because I am a jaded and tired old man and I have seen things like this end up there far too many times.

[Disco Pickle]

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

I begin to suspect that he means smudgy people types.

[EDITED FOR] for Pickle with a 2 day running headache and should have PMd it if I was going to be so fucking mean about it.  That, and I should really stop getting angry at people I've never met on the internet.

It just set me off. 

why would you suspect that?

For the reasons stated above.

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

I begin to suspect that he means smudgy people types.

Isn't DP from Mexico?

Not a native, but moved there for several years to get a break from the States and try something new.  Learned the language in a year and a half (still problems conjugating those verbs sometimes) and was engaged to be married.  I have a son living down there with his mother, who broke off the engagement when she got pregnant, and he'll grow up down there and I'll just have to see him when I can, or when I can afford to set up shop down there permanently, something I'm working on tirelessly.

I'm sure Charlie will have some smart-assed thing to say along the lines of "oh, well some of his best friends and family are smudgy people, he can't be racist"

[Adios]

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

I begin to suspect that he means smudgy people types.

I've meant to say this earlier when you made that first smart assed comment and I let it go because I wanted to have a conversation with people interested in sharing ideas, not shitting in a thread just to shit in it.  I'll gladly do it now:  Go fuck yourself Charlie.  I don't give a shit if you are sick and recovering, it's no good god damn reason to come in here and shit out of your fingers.  

You don't agree with me?  Fine.  Tell me why, I'll listen.  If you're convincing, I may even change my mind.  You're not interested in that though.  You just like to shit.

So fuck yourself.  

why would you suspect that?

For the reasons stated above.

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

I begin to suspect that he means smudgy people types.

Isn't DP from Mexico?

Not a native, but moved there for several years to get a break from the States and try something new.  Learned the language in a year and a half (still problems conjugating those verbs sometimes) and was engaged to be married.  I have a son living down there with his mother, who broke off the engagement when she got pregnant, and he'll grow up down there and I'll just have to see him when I can, or when I can afford to set up shop down there permanently, something I'm working on tirelessly.

I'm sure Charlie will have some smart-assed thing to say along the lines of "oh, well some of his best friends and family are smudgy people, he can't be racist"

You don't know how to do it, but you say they are doing it wrong. You said you supported the people in the ME, but not the people in the UK.

Tell me, who exactly did you mean by the "have nothings"? Who are the "have a bit and are working hard to get more"?

Why do those from the ME get a pass and those from the UK don't?

Pardon me, but this sounds like rehashed and overworked right wing bullshit to me.

[Doktor Howl]

I've meant to say this earlier when you made that first smart assed comment and I let it go because I wanted to have a conversation with people interested in sharing ideas, not shitting in a thread just to shit in it.  I'll gladly do it now:  Go fuck yourself Charlie.  I don't give a shit if you are sick and recovering, it's no good god damn reason to come in here and shit out of your fingers.  

We need a reason?   

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm not entirely convinced that the violent rioters, the thieving and murdering sort, would know what to do with change if it were dropped on their door step.  No, I don't think they'd be in a better place through letter writing.  Civil public discourse has been shown to bring people to a cause who might not otherwise have been willing to listen.  The "have nothings" taking rage out on the "have a bit and working to have more" means there's very little chance of getting them that could most sympathize with them, on their sides.  They could be a loud and un-ignorable voice, but it's pissed away by opportunists.

I think that the biggest mistake you are making is in believing that there is a "violent rioter" type of person. There is not. There is no us and them, there is only us when we're pushed far enough.

That's what makes the question of why they felt pushed too far the most relevant one.

Ok, I understand that argument, but there are people who would go out and fuck shit up just to fuck shit up if they thought they could get away with it, and wouldn't need any more reason than they thought they could get away with it.  Those people exist, and there's maybe more of them than you're taking into consideration.  Those are the sorts I meant.

[ETA] The sort of human whose behavior elicits the "this is why we can't have nice things" meme.

That fairly accurately describes all young men. Ever.

But it more accurately describes disenfranchised young men with little or nothing to lose.

You seem to think that there is a "type" of person for whom fucking shit up for the pleasure of it is inborn. Psychologists call them "sociopaths", and they are fairly rare. So what we are looking at is young men who are in an environment that causes them to feel they have little or nothing to lose. That means that those young men are interchangeable with any other young men anywhere in the world. Including you.