Occupy

[Doktor Howl]

I might have missed it, but I'm still waiting for a coherent message explaining what the OWS people want.

Because right now, it seems like they're having a Howard Beale movement...And while there's nothing wrong with that as a start, it doesn't really get much done.

I think it's basically this:

http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street

O'Rourke claimed that the Occupy Wall Street people flunked econ, and Grayson said, "No, listen Bill, I have no trouble understanding what they are talking about." O'Rourke asked Grayson, "You passed econ?" Grayson answered, "I was an economist for more than three years, so I think so...Now let me tell you about what they're talking about. They're complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobody's held responsible for that. Not a single person's been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries. They're upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well."

O'Rourke joked that Occupy Wall Street has found their spokesman, then Grayson continued, "Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who can't find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who can't see a doctor when they're sick, that we shouldn't have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldn't have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, I'll be that spokesman."

Okay, that's valid.

But they need to concentrate on pushing the message, because I don't think it's getting through.

[Cain]

The media, of course, are purposefully obsfucating the message.

They're going to have to rely on their blogs, the Occupy Wall Street Journal etc, because the media are not going to give them a fair say.

[Doktor Howl]

The media, of course, are purposefully obsfucating the message.

They're going to have to rely on their blogs, the Occupy Wall Street Journal etc, because the media are not going to give them a fair say.

Then they're going to have to find a way around that.

Nothing saying we can't help.

[Cain]

Yeah, I've been telling people on other sites what it is about, when they've said they don't know.

Also, I think the message may be getting through.  New poll today showed 53% of Republicans in favour of tax rises on the rich.  Poll on Fox News (unscientific, I know) showed 69% approval of OWS.

There was also a girl at the NYC protests, IIRC, holding up a sign declaring she was one of the 1%...and she could afford to pay more, and please could she be taxed more.

Our favourite philosopher-troll, Slavoj Zizek, has also waded in:

So what are we doing here? Let me tell you a wonderful, old joke from Communist times. A guy was sent from East Germany to work in Siberia. He knew his mail would be read by censors, so he told his friends: "Let's establish a code. If a letter you get from me is written in blue ink, it is true what I say. If it is written in red ink, it is false." After a month, his friends get the first letter. Everything is in blue. It says, this letter: "Everything is wonderful here. Stores are full of good food. Movie theatres show good films from the west. Apartments are large and luxurious. The only thing you cannot buy is red ink." This is how we live. We have all the freedoms we want. But what we are missing is red ink: the language to articulate our non-freedom. The way we are taught to speak about freedom— war on terror and so on—falsifies freedom. And this is what you are doing here. You are giving all of us red ink...

What do we perceive today as possible? Just follow the media. On the one hand, in technology and sexuality, everything seems to be possible. You can travel to the moon, you can become immortal by biogenetics, you can have sex with animals or whatever, but look at the field of society and economy. There, almost everything is considered impossible. You want to raise taxes by little bit for the rich. They tell you it's impossible. We lose competitivity. You want more money for health care, they tell you, "Impossible, this means totalitarian state." There's something wrong in the world, where you are promised to be immortal but cannot spend a little bit more for healthcare.

[Cramulus]

I think the message is fairly clear if you read alternative media outlets or the websites centered around the protest.

The protest has produced a pair of small-run newspapers which articulate what the thing is about. http://www.breakingcopy.com/occupied-wall-street-journal-pdf - earlier ITT, somebody posted a link to a better text version.

People that only get their news from the MSM are probably very confused. I've been consuming OSW media like crazy and I think maybe 1 out of 4 articles gets it right. It's slowly getting better though.

A really popular framing issue that I'm seeing is that many journalists (mistakenly) expect the protesters to come up with a concrete plan or a policy, like we'd expect of a congressman or other elected official. And really - it's our elected officials job to turn their constituents demands into a working policy. The protests can't be faulted for not producing a bill -- they're not lawyers or politicians.

For example, Sean Hannity had this "protest organizer" on his radio show the other day, and he kept hammering her with policy questions. "How much of the money he earned do you think Steve Jobs should have been allowed to keep?" (great reframe there: presenting the idea of Apple paying taxes as the late Steve Jobs personally being robbed by the government)

The interviewee kept responding to the tune of, "I am not qualified to answer that, I'm not a policy maker." Which Hannity, precious Hannity, thought was bogus and was grounds to dismiss her. His other guest kept saying things like, "See? Liberals think the government has a right to take your money. Liberals hate freedom."


The protesters job is to articulate what they hate about how shit is being run. In that, they are fairly clear (they're about as coherent as 25K+ people can be). They have to generate enough pressure that politicians can't get reelected in 2012 unless they make progress against these issues.

From where I'm sitting, a politician that appears to be addressing the source of outrage stands to gain a lot of political currency. When this outweighs the currency he'll have to spend in order to make unpopular and difficult decisions, we will see real change.

[Doktor Howl]

I think the message is fairly clear if you read alternative media outlets or the websites centered around the protest.

How many people in Flyoverlandia do that?

As Screamin' Howie Dean found out, a web-centered base is nice, but it by itself doesn't make the nut.  You have to grab the general population by the balls and make them listen, or all you're doing is wanking loudly.

[Cain]

http://moneyland.time.com/2011/10/10/bank-transfer-day-urges-americans-to-leave-big-banks/#ixzz1aabWD6p7

The growing anger directed at U.S. banks (especially the big ones that took federal bailout funds) over recent fee increases coalesced this weekend into a Facebook-driven campaign urging Americans to close their accounts at large banks and move their money to credit unions by Nov. 5.

Though not initiated by the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York and other cities around the country, the effort has been embraced by the protesters, and their "We are the 99%" mantra is all over the "Bank Transfer Day" Facebook page — making this the first specific action by a political movement that has been criticized as unfocused and incoherent.

Bank Transfer Day was started by a 27-year-old Los Angeles art-gallery owner, Kristen Christian. She says she's not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protesters but that many organizers of those demonstrations had reached out to her to express support.

Christian chose Nov. 5 because of its association with 17th century British folk hero Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the House of Lords but was captured on that date in 1605. In an interview with the Village Voice, however, Christian and Occupy Wall Street leaders who discussed the effort to get Americans to move their money from large banks to small institutions emphasized that they weren't trying to create a collapse of the financial system. "I've been very careful to state that this is not ... anarchy," Christian told the Voice. "It's shifting the money to a company people respect the practices of. It's like, if you don't like Walmart's practices, shopping at a local grocery store instead."

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I might have missed it, but I'm still waiting for a coherent message explaining what the OWS people want.

Because right now, it seems like they're having a Howard Beale movement...And while there's nothing wrong with that as a start, it doesn't really get much done.

I think it's basically this:

http://www.politicususa.com/en/alan-grayson-occupy-wall-street

O'Rourke claimed that the Occupy Wall Street people flunked econ, and Grayson said, "No, listen Bill, I have no trouble understanding what they are talking about." O'Rourke asked Grayson, "You passed econ?" Grayson answered, "I was an economist for more than three years, so I think so...Now let me tell you about what they're talking about. They're complaining that Wall Street wrecked the economy three years ago and nobody's held responsible for that. Not a single person's been indicted or convicted for destroying twenty percent of our national net worth accumulated over two centuries. They're upset about the fact that Wall Street has iron control over the economic policies of this country, and that one party is a wholly owned subsidiary of Wall Street, and the other party caters to them as well."

O'Rourke joked that Occupy Wall Street has found their spokesman, then Grayson continued, "Listen, if I am spokesman for all the people who think that we should not have 24 million people in this country who can't find a full time job, that we should not have 50 million people in this country who can't see a doctor when they're sick, that we shouldn't have 47 million people in this country who need government help to feed themselves, and we shouldn't have 15 million families who owe more on their mortgage than the value of their home, okay, I'll be that spokesman."

Yoinking this for Facebook. Villager joked last night when I told her I was going that maybe I could help them figure out what specifically they are protesting. It annoyed me a little, but I explained that they're not without a specific reason to be there. Cain's mentioning that the media is deliberately fudging it makes sense, and makes me less annoyed at other people. I suppose supporters and conservative plants with irrelevant signs are not really helping things either.

[Cramulus]

Memetic Tech 101

Supportive frame: "Anti-greed protest"
Antagonistic frame: "Anti-capitalist protest"

The supportive framing spins the group as cooperating towards a universal human value.
The counter-protest framing spins the group as a fringe critiquing the mainstream from the outside.

Memetics is total wizardry. You can quickly transmute gold back to lead again with a quick wave of the holly wood wand.

And that's why I don't want the movement to get a spokesperson. It makes the protest so much easier to pigeon hole and dismiss. Imagine if Michael Moore were standing in front, owning it. (he was on the ground a few weeks ago, and made it very clear that he was NOT in charge) The dude has a halo of controversy, there are already so many swords pointed towards him, it would be impossible for the movement to take off with Moore as the ring leader.

It's like Guy DeBoard said -- an argument loses its power as soon as it is replied to.

The best arguments are the ones that brook no response.

A movement that can be summarized and captured by a single symbol is easy to negate.



Remember the Situationist slogans

     -- "Beneath the sidewalk--the beach!",

        "My SHADOW is my graffiti"

        "We don't want to be the watchdogs or servants of capitalism."

        "We want structures that serve people, not people serving structures."

        "This concerns everyone."

        "Warning: ambitious careerists may now be disguised as "progressives.""

        "I love you!!! Oh, say it with paving stones!!!"

        "Run, the old world is behind you!"

[Precious Moments Zalgo]

http://moneyland.time.com/2011/10/10/bank-transfer-day-urges-americans-to-leave-big-banks/#ixzz1aabWD6p7

The growing anger directed at U.S. banks (especially the big ones that took federal bailout funds) over recent fee increases coalesced this weekend into a Facebook-driven campaign urging Americans to close their accounts at large banks and move their money to credit unions by Nov. 5.

Though not initiated by the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York and other cities around the country, the effort has been embraced by the protesters, and their "We are the 99%" mantra is all over the "Bank Transfer Day" Facebook page — making this the first specific action by a political movement that has been criticized as unfocused and incoherent.

Bank Transfer Day was started by a 27-year-old Los Angeles art-gallery owner, Kristen Christian. She says she's not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protesters but that many organizers of those demonstrations had reached out to her to express support.

Christian chose Nov. 5 because of its association with 17th century British folk hero Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the House of Lords but was captured on that date in 1605. In an interview with the Village Voice, however, Christian and Occupy Wall Street leaders who discussed the effort to get Americans to move their money from large banks to small institutions emphasized that they weren't trying to create a collapse of the financial system. "I've been very careful to state that this is not ... anarchy," Christian told the Voice. "It's shifting the money to a company people respect the practices of. It's like, if you don't like Walmart's practices, shopping at a local grocery store instead."

I like the idea of this, but the whole Guy Fawkes motif turns me off.  Why is a man who was a patsy in a foiled plot to overthrow a representative government and establish a Catholic theocracy in its place a folk hero now?

I can't participate, as I already use a credit union instead of a bank.

[Doktor Howl]

http://moneyland.time.com/2011/10/10/bank-transfer-day-urges-americans-to-leave-big-banks/#ixzz1aabWD6p7

The growing anger directed at U.S. banks (especially the big ones that took federal bailout funds) over recent fee increases coalesced this weekend into a Facebook-driven campaign urging Americans to close their accounts at large banks and move their money to credit unions by Nov. 5.

Though not initiated by the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York and other cities around the country, the effort has been embraced by the protesters, and their "We are the 99%" mantra is all over the "Bank Transfer Day" Facebook page — making this the first specific action by a political movement that has been criticized as unfocused and incoherent.

Bank Transfer Day was started by a 27-year-old Los Angeles art-gallery owner, Kristen Christian. She says she's not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protesters but that many organizers of those demonstrations had reached out to her to express support.

Christian chose Nov. 5 because of its association with 17th century British folk hero Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the House of Lords but was captured on that date in 1605. In an interview with the Village Voice, however, Christian and Occupy Wall Street leaders who discussed the effort to get Americans to move their money from large banks to small institutions emphasized that they weren't trying to create a collapse of the financial system. "I've been very careful to state that this is not ... anarchy," Christian told the Voice. "It's shifting the money to a company people respect the practices of. It's like, if you don't like Walmart's practices, shopping at a local grocery store instead."

I like the idea of this, but the whole Guy Fawkes motif turns me off.  Why is a man who was a patsy in a foiled plot to overthrow a representative government and establish a Catholic theocracy in its place a folk hero now?

I can't participate, as I already use a credit union instead of a bank.

Meh, historical characters always get misrepresented. 

While I view the mask as sort of silly, I don't think the people that wear them want to install Papal rule in the affected nations.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

http://moneyland.time.com/2011/10/10/bank-transfer-day-urges-americans-to-leave-big-banks/#ixzz1aabWD6p7

The growing anger directed at U.S. banks (especially the big ones that took federal bailout funds) over recent fee increases coalesced this weekend into a Facebook-driven campaign urging Americans to close their accounts at large banks and move their money to credit unions by Nov. 5.

Though not initiated by the Occupy Wall Street movement in New York and other cities around the country, the effort has been embraced by the protesters, and their "We are the 99%" mantra is all over the "Bank Transfer Day" Facebook page — making this the first specific action by a political movement that has been criticized as unfocused and incoherent.

Bank Transfer Day was started by a 27-year-old Los Angeles art-gallery owner, Kristen Christian. She says she's not affiliated with the Occupy Wall Street protesters but that many organizers of those demonstrations had reached out to her to express support.

Christian chose Nov. 5 because of its association with 17th century British folk hero Guy Fawkes, who tried to blow up the House of Lords but was captured on that date in 1605. In an interview with the Village Voice, however, Christian and Occupy Wall Street leaders who discussed the effort to get Americans to move their money from large banks to small institutions emphasized that they weren't trying to create a collapse of the financial system. "I've been very careful to state that this is not ... anarchy," Christian told the Voice. "It's shifting the money to a company people respect the practices of. It's like, if you don't like Walmart's practices, shopping at a local grocery store instead."

I like the idea of this, but the whole Guy Fawkes motif turns me off.  Why is a man who was a patsy in a foiled plot to overthrow a representative government and establish a Catholic theocracy in its place a folk hero now?

I can't participate, as I already use a credit union instead of a bank.

Meh, historical characters always get misrepresented. 

While I view the mask as sort of silly, I don't think the people that wear them want to install Papal rule in the affected nations.

Yeah. I just assume they're with Anonymous. Or at least want to be with Anonymous.

I hate it for aesthetic reasons.

[kingyak]

Meh, historical characters always get misrepresented. 

While I view the mask as sort of silly, I don't think the people that wear them want to install Papal rule in the affected nations.

I'm not convinced that most of the people who wear/use it are aware that it had an significance before V for Vendetta (and the movie version, at that).

[Doktor Howl]

Yeah. I just assume they're with Anonymous. Or at least want to be with Anonymous.

I hate it for aesthetic reasons.

Me, too.  It's basically a movement copying a movie, because they couldn't think of anything themselves.

But it got some people MOVING, even if all they did was pester the jackasses that run scientology...And moving is better than sitting.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Yeah. I just assume they're with Anonymous. Or at least want to be with Anonymous.

I hate it for aesthetic reasons.

Me, too.  It's basically a movement copying a movie, because they couldn't think of anything themselves.

But it got some people MOVING, even if all they did was pester the jackasses that run scientology...And moving is better than sitting.

Oh, I don't fault them for getting up and moving. I just think a bunch of people wearing the same mask from a specific movie based off of a graphic novel is kinda lame.