jesus cult

[Nephew Twiddleton]

The old adage- heaven helps those who help themselves.

Best you can do dude. Sorry to hear it and i hope the kid turns out alright.

[rong]

i take it the consensus is "try to shed some light, but don't be surprised when they don't listen?"  

i was thinking about sending them this joke:

A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religous man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."

Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle."

With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter."

and this news article:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/oregon-faith-healing-couple-sentenced-to-6-years-in-prison-60134/


i've also considered telling the father he should think about what he will tell his wife and child when he meets them in heaven, because if either one dies, he will be seeing them very soon.

[Phox]

what makes it extra hard is they're so pathetic that I want to help them, but I don't want to reinforce their idea that they are receiving help because their prayers are being answered.

There's that parable about the three servants that comes to mind.

The one where the two slaves double their money via usury through money changers and the third slave hides and safeguards his? And then the two get rewarded and the one who hid it gets punished?

Yeah, that one still doesn't make much sense to me.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

what makes it extra hard is they're so pathetic that I want to help them, but I don't want to reinforce their idea that they are receiving help because their prayers are being answered.

There's that parable about the three servants that comes to mind.

The one where the two slaves double their money via usury through money changers and the third slave hides and safeguards his? And then the two get rewarded and the one who hid it gets punished?

Yeah, that one still doesn't make much sense to me.

STOP TWISTING IT ALL AROUND.  YOU THINK YOU KNOW BETTER THAN JESUS?  HUH?  DO YOU?

Next, you'll be fucking with the Samaritans and the sparrows.

[Phox]

what makes it extra hard is they're so pathetic that I want to help them, but I don't want to reinforce their idea that they are receiving help because their prayers are being answered.

There's that parable about the three servants that comes to mind.

The one where the two slaves double their money via usury through money changers and the third slave hides and safeguards his? And then the two get rewarded and the one who hid it gets punished?

Yeah, that one still doesn't make much sense to me.

STOP TWISTING IT ALL AROUND.  YOU THINK YOU KNOW BETTER THAN JESUS?  HUH?  DO YOU?

Next, you'll be fucking with the Samaritans and the sparrows.

Hey, did you know getting compared to a Samaritan ought to be a damn degrading insult (if you were a Jew around 33 CE, perhaps)?

Phox,
Feelin' lucky.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There are a few fairly likely best-case scenarios. The best one is that they just plain find themselves so miserable they have to move out of the house.

Next best: she gets ill from the cold and moves back with her parents in time to recover and have a healthy birth.

Not too bad: There's a small house fire and while no major damage is done, they have to move someplace more hospitable.

The worst case scenarios are that the whole house burns down with them in it, or that she suffers through a chilled and undernourished pregnancy and then something goes wrong during or after birth.

It's the likelihood that she will be weak, chilled, and undernourished during her pregnancy that bothers me the most. It dramatically increases the likelihood of low birth weight and complications.

[rong]

the good news is, because of this situation, I have learned the Mark Zuckerberg was raised Jewish and now considers himself an Atheist.

puts a different spin on all the churchy god posts i constantly see on facebook - it's kind of like writing "god does not exist" in the bible.

[rong]

It's the likelihood that she will be weak, chilled, and undernourished during her pregnancy that bothers me the most. It dramatically increases the likelihood of low birth weight and complications.

me too and mainly this.

edit: if i'm correct that she is due in april.  she will be starting the 3rd trimester during the coldest part of the winter - which is usually a week of -20^oF at best.

[Freeky]

i take it the consensus is "try to shed some light, but don't be surprised when they don't listen?"  

i was thinking about sending them this joke:

A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religous man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."

Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle."

With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter."

and this news article:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/oregon-faith-healing-couple-sentenced-to-6-years-in-prison-60134/


i've also considered telling the father he should think about what he will tell his wife and child when he meets them in heaven, because if either one dies, he will be seeing them very soon.

If you're trying to convince them that when help arrives, it ISN'T their god's doing, I wouldn't go with that joke, as it reinforces that belief.

It was kind of funny, though.

[notathing]

mostly,  I feel bad for the child.

I wish people would stop reproducing.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Hey PD,

I have an all-joking-aside serious matter that I could use some intelligent and unbiased input with.

I find myself in a situation where I'm strongly compelled to intervene on matters that are quite possibly none of my fucking business.

so, here's the story:

my wife's cousin, while in high school started going to this coffee shop called "he brews" (get it?).  at first the family (you should understand that this is a small town where "family" means extended family and not just mom and dad) thought this was cool because she was meeting and hanging out with christian kids instead of the pot head sons and daughters of alcoholics that she went to school with.  and, to her credit, she managed to graduate without getting pregnant.

she then graduated high school (barely) and went to college for, I believe, 1 year before dropping out and getting married and is now pregnant - due in April.  All of this would be great and I'd be really happy for everyone except for the jesus cult part of the story mentioned in the subject.

from what i can gather, there is a church near the coffeeshop run by the calvary ministries which, in it of itself isn't too bad.  they're very much into proselytizing, but pretty much harmless.

to complicate things, there is another group called Tribe of Judah .  I believe the owner of the "he brews" coffee shop is their leader and they all attend the cavalry chapel church.  they live in some sort of hippy compound in tents and stuff.

I didn't really have a problem with any of this, and - in fact have been kind of amused by my wife's family's reaction to being confronted with this extreme sort of christianity.  they were down right mad when they busted ass putting together a nice engagement party (cooking food, setting up tents, etc) only to have the groom's family hold a prayer to thank god for providing everything.  they were like - fuck you - we set this up.  we cooked all this food while you were playing frisbee.

what I do have a problem with is that she is pregnant.  they are living in an ancient, dilapidated house that someone gave them.  they haven't figured out what they are going to do for heat, but since neither one of them have jobs, they will probably try to burn wood.  the husband lost his drivers license (nobody knows why) years ago and is praying for the money he needs to cover his court costs to get it back.  they are praying for a new alternator for their car.  by praying, i mean - that is how they expect to get their car fixed - by praying for it.  also, did i mention she is pregnant and not seeking any sort of prenatal care?  they plan to do a home birth.  they say they have prayed about it and are comfortable with god's plan for them and their unborn child.

i wouldn't give 2 shits about this, and would actually be kind of amused by it all if there wasn't a pregnancy and birth involved.  in my mind, they are needlessly risking 2 lives. 

thoughts?

Been on the bad side of the brain-washing thing before. It's bad. Especially on the bad side. Here's what I did from there, when rational arguments were presented (or popped up in my own noodle) that countered my faith, I literally visualized them as objects, then turned them transparent, then felt really good about my ability to not get brainwashed by doubts, and reason and things that were obviously not in line with what I knew. It was a very conscious and deliberate process on my part, probably because I'd been head-fucking myself since like age 2. There is another post in the forums about advertising that describes a similar effect (and some threads that demonstrate it in action). I would imagine something along those lines happens in all cases like this though possibly not with that level of awareness.

Having been there, basically it meant the more that was thrown at me that countered what I thought, the more firm I was in my conclusion, not the other way around. I would suggest saying, with absolutely no pointed concern, nothing that threatens their decision or even questions it, "If you need anything, I'll be here," and just leave it at that. That prevents isolation which keeps the outside world in focus and doesn't do anything to worsen the situation (which is pretty fucking bad and I totally feel for you). Total isolation is the worst of all possible scenarios, though, and any pressures will only increase that likelihood.

Totally unprofessional opinion from a guy who just admitted to delusional/dissociative tendencies, but also wishing, very much the best.

[rong]

thanks for the perspective.  i was aware of the "confrontation strengthens faith" aspect of religious types - but was hoping for a way around it.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Without getting theological it seems to me that the "let go and let god" bit could be like when one gets thrown or is in an automobile accident. 
The first instinct is to control, and it manifests as a reflexive tensing of the muscles.  This is the worst reaction you could have. 
The opposite reaction needs to be trained into a person and once it's there it allows the impact to flow through you, instead of into you, preventing the ripping of tissue and broken bones.
Like anything, this reaction is no guarantee.  It just ups your chances.