Cyberpunk

[Scribbly]

So... I'm a big fan of Cyberpunk, largely the Gibson novels and the Cyberpunk RPG (Though Jennifer Government is also highly enjoyable if a bit more over the top even than Gibson's stuff). There's some common themes in Cyberpunk which I think translate really well into a kind of modern mythic archetype:

• Distrust of authority
  The pointlessness of money for its own sake
  Good vs Evil (Where Good means principled and Evil means giving in to lust/greed, by and large)
  Abuses of technology - particularly privacy
  Concern about pollution and environmental issues
  'Megacorporations' and all the abuses they bring
  

Cyberpunk 'heroes' are often very personal, and tend to 'win' in a personal way, or in a way which benefits themselves or their community without even trying to challenge a bigger system. I always found that interesting, and recently it has struck me that it may be because that is a more 'realistic' kind of level for effecting change. The dystopian future is meant as a warning, obviously, about the direction of society... but the implication is that even in those dark times, it is possible to screw the system right back by focusing on the personal and immediate. The Cyberpunk Hero is the man (or woman) who, like any hero, looks at the easy way and decides to stand by their principles instead, and is ultimately vindicated in doing so.

It has also largely died off in favour of more post-apocalyptic literature (Metro 2033) or fantasy (Harry Dresden, Nightside). Part of what I liked about Cyberpunk was that the aesthetic, whilst still definitely being science-fiction and largely impossible... never handwaved into magic territory. Transhumanist elements - such as body modification - were always approached with a more 'realistic' mindset as to who would have access to the technology, why, and the purposes to which it would be put. The best way I heard it put was that Transhuman literature suggests technology will allow us to fix our human failings, whilst Cyberpunk literature suggests technology will magnify those failings.

What do you guys think about Cyberpunk as a subgenre? Has its time been and gone? Is there nothing left to say? Personally, I'd love to see a revival. I feel like the -punk suffix is used as shorthand for 'funky look', where Cyberpunk as a literary movement was more concerned about drawing attention to various social issues which, if anything, seem even more pressing now than they did then.

[The Wizard Joseph]

I really like cyberpunk, but my first exposure to the genre was Shadowrun by Fasa games so it's always had a magical element to me..  I think there's plenty of storytelling to be had there yet.  I'm not really well versed in it from a literary context though.  

I've always wanted to see what sort of high opera you could dig up from within the mega-corp structure.  I've never explored this as a tale, but the story of the fall from grace into the grit and dregs that such a person helped make has fascinated me for a long time.  Might wind up similar to Metropolis, but with no Maria and a nihilistic ending.  And middle.  And a bright and shining beginning full of wonder and possibility wrapped around a control-freak slaughter monster that tolerates exactly 0 dissent.  Like the fall of Lucifer if nobody could have been bothered to come with him.

Man, if I can get a little motivated I might start in on such a tale.  Probably as a series of cyber-journal entries in a head-comp found inside some dead, withered vagrant with no system record, but strangely perfect teeth...

Cyberpunk and Dystopias in general make for great morality plays I think.


ETA: What would you recommend as a starter for my literary appetites in the genre?

[Scribbly]

I really like cyberpunk, but my first exposure to the genre was Shadowrun by Fasa games so it's always had a magical element to me..  I think there's plenty of storytelling to be had there yet.  I'm not really well versed in it from a literary context though.  

I've always wanted to see what sort of high opera you could dig up from within the mega-corp structure.  I've never explored this as a tale, but the story of the fall from grace into the grit and dregs that such a person helped make has fascinated me for a long time.  Might wind up similar to Metropolis, but with no Maria and a nihilistic ending.  And middle.  And a bright and shining beginning full of wonder and possibility wrapped around a control-freak slaughter monster that tolerates exactly 0 dissent.  Like the fall of Lucifer if nobody could have been bothered to come with him.

Man, if I can get a little motivated I might start in on such a tale.  Probably as a series of cyber-journal entries in a head-comp found inside some dead, withered vagrant with no system record, but strangely perfect teeth...

Cyberpunk and Dystopias in general make for great morality plays I think.


ETA: What would you recommend as a starter for my literary appetites in the genre?

That does sound like an interesting story. I love Shadowrun, as well, but I do feel that it veers away from a lot of the core themes of Cyberpunk literature through the inclusion of overt magic. It is a cool setting for gaming, but I wouldn't say it really makes much social commentary. It also hasn't aged well.

Neuromancer is the seminal work. Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive follow on and are pretty good.

Jennifer Government doesn't play with the advanced technology angle, but is far more focused on the abuse of power and corporations whilst being set twenty minutes into the future. I'd definitely recommend it.

Transmetropolitan is a great comic and should probably be recommended anyway, but also probably fits the subgenre.

For a good first introduction, I'd definitely start with Neuromancer. If you want something short and sweet, though, the Burning Chrome anthology is also highly enjoyable, and is a bunch of short stories, which has the advantage of giving you a lot of flavour in a lot of short bites.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Cool, thanks for the references!   

I believe that I had started Neuromancer from a link I found here and bookmarked it to finish later. I'll put it higher on the list and let you know what I think when I'm done.

Jennifer Government sounds interesting for the LACK of a techno angle.

I definitely thought Shadowrun was a fun setting at the time, but I'm not 17 anymore.  The one exception with the magic angle that I thought was super cool as opposed to entertaining was the Idea of the CyberZombi.  The point where the essence of a person is so low because of cyber replacements that you had to use extremely powerful magic just to keep them "alive."  Mostly because of the sad tales of dehumanization and power that it made possible.

GTG for now, but will check in with this thread as I get into some of these references!

[Scribbly]

Cool, thanks for the references!   

I believe that I had started Neuromancer from a link I found here and bookmarked it to finish later. I'll put it higher on the list and let you know what I think when I'm done.

Jennifer Government sounds interesting for the LACK of a techno angle.

I definitely thought Shadowrun was a fun setting at the time, but I'm not 17 anymore.  The one exception with the magic angle that I thought was super cool as opposed to entertaining was the Idea of the CyberZombi.  The point where the essence of a person is so low because of cyber replacements that you had to use extremely powerful magic just to keep them "alive."  Mostly because of the sad tales of dehumanization and power that it made possible.

GTG for now, but will check in with this thread as I get into some of these references!

I really liked the flavour of the memory stimulator that they needed - intense, happy memories of your life suddenly being superimposed over whatever is actually happening to trick your brain into thinking you are still alive. Nightmarish and neat.

[Elder Iptuous]

never really dug deeply into the genre, but i have read neuromancer, which was quite good.
thanks for the tips, i might check them out. 

Jennifer Govt. i would not have thought to include in the cyberpunk genre...
it's set in the future and it's quasi-dystopian, but i would have put the technology inherent in the cyberpunk genre at the forefront of it's requirements, and Jennifer Govt. lacks this pretty well entirely from what i recall.
why do you consider this book to fall in that bucket?

[Scribbly]

I classify it as Cyberpunk because, although there is less overt technology (there's still some - IIRC, scannable tattoos were in there), the societal message is very much in there loud and clear. It is 20 minutes into the future but could easily be set at the very early stages of a transition from a nation state based society to a megacorporation based society. The whole name scheme thing is very cyberpunk to me as well, and the descriptions of the cities (from what I remember) hit a lot of the same aesthetic qualities. Particularly the scummy slums and the people who inhabit them.

I don't think you need to focus on the technology to be a cyberpunk novel - though it is definitely a common setting trapping no question there. Cyberpunk, to me, is more about how the individuals relate to the advancement of their society. The technology aspect is important, but it is the scepticism and theme of corruption as human nature which make the work fit in to my mind - and those are core themes in Jennifer Government.

[Elder Iptuous]

ah, well put.
given that interpretation, 'cyberpunk' is rather limiting as far as nomenclature goes.  is the listing of themes that you give the general guidelines of the genre among the aficionados?  that is to say, would a book like Jennifer Govt. be included in a list of favorites on 'cyberpunkfan.com'? (i'm assuming there is such a community..)

as an aside, i would say that they had fully transitioned into a megacorporation based society, as the entire govt. had been privatized as a corporation, and was seen as simply one actor among peers by the characters in the book, as i recall.

[Scribbly]

ah, well put.
given that interpretation, 'cyberpunk' is rather limiting as far as nomenclature goes.  is the listing of themes that you give the general guidelines of the genre among the aficionados?  that is to say, would a book like Jennifer Govt. be included in a list of favorites on 'cyberpunkfan.com'? (i'm assuming there is such a community..)

as an aside, i would say that they had fully transitioned into a megacorporation based society, as the entire govt. had been privatized as a corporation, and was seen as simply one actor among peers by the characters in the book, as i recall.

I recall things rather differently - it has been a while, but I thought that the plot was based around the corporations attempting to render the government into such a state.

Honestly? I'm not sure what the online community would think of it. I largely work off what me and my friends consider the guidelines for it... I'm desperately trying to remember the last book that was leant around which was called cyberpunk, but I'm not having much luck. Shall ask tonight.

[The Wizard Joseph]

I classify it as Cyberpunk because, although there is less overt technology (there's still some - IIRC, scannable tattoos were in there), the societal message is very much in there loud and clear. It is 20 minutes into the future but could easily be set at the very early stages of a transition from a nation state based society to a megacorporation based society. The whole name scheme thing is very cyberpunk to me as well, and the descriptions of the cities (from what I remember) hit a lot of the same aesthetic qualities. Particularly the scummy slums and the people who inhabit them.

I don't think you need to focus on the technology to be a cyberpunk novel - though it is definitely a common setting trapping no question there. Cyberpunk, to me, is more about how the individuals relate to the advancement of their society. The technology aspect is important, but it is the scepticism and theme of corruption as human nature which make the work fit in to my mind - and those are core themes in Jennifer Government.

ah, well put.
given that interpretation, 'cyberpunk' is rather limiting as far as nomenclature goes.  is the listing of themes that you give the general guidelines of the genre among the aficionados?  that is to say, would a book like Jennifer Govt. be included in a list of favorites on 'cyberpunkfan.com'? (i'm assuming there is such a community..)

as an aside, i would say that they had fully transitioned into a megacorporation based society, as the entire govt. had been privatized as a corporation, and was seen as simply one actor among peers by the characters in the book, as i recall.

I recall things rather differently - it has been a while, but I thought that the plot was based around the corporations attempting to render the government into such a state.

Honestly? I'm not sure what the online community would think of it. I largely work off what me and my friends consider the guidelines for it... I'm desperately trying to remember the last book that was leant around which was called cyberpunk, but I'm not having much luck. Shall ask tonight.

Cyberpunk would still work I think.  IIRC the definition of cybernetics has much more to do with information flow than biotechnlogy.  The possibility of technological enhancement of bio systems is bionics.  Biopunk has kind of a neat ring to it. hm.. 

The possibilities of information control are inherently about morality. Technology is the implement for those choices and their outcomes.  The double-edged sword, if you will, fit to liberate or to conquer.  It's useful to defend yourself and eliminate your enemies, but terribly dangerous to the wielder without proper control. 

tried Cyberpunkfan.com... no dice!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Cyberpunk would still work I think.  IIRC the definition of cybernetics has much more to do with information flow than biotechnlogy. 

No.  No.  Just shut up.  For the love of God & all that is holy, stop.  Just fucking stop.

Before it's too late.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Cyberpunk would still work I think.  IIRC the definition of cybernetics has much more to do with information flow than biotechnlogy. 

No.  No.  Just shut up.  For the love of God & all that is holy, stop.  Just fucking stop.

Before it's too late.

Did I miss something here?  I'm not sure what I did.. how can decide whether or not to listen and stop?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Cyberpunk would still work I think.  IIRC the definition of cybernetics has much more to do with information flow than biotechnlogy. 

No.  No.  Just shut up.  For the love of God & all that is holy, stop.  Just fucking stop.

Before it's too late.

Did I miss something here?  I'm not sure what I did.. how can decide whether or not to listen and stop?

This is one of those "Oracle of Delphi" things.  It all becomes agonizingly clear, when it's far, far too late.

[Cramulus]

What do you guys think about Cyberpunk as a subgenre? Has its time been and gone? Is there nothing left to say? Personally, I'd love to see a revival. I feel like the -punk suffix is used as shorthand for 'funky look', where Cyberpunk as a literary movement was more concerned about drawing attention to various social issues which, if anything, seem even more pressing now than they did then.

I think it's due for revival. If anything, because we are now living in the world that Gibson imagined. Gibson's novels get closer and closer to the present, right? I admit I've really only read the Sprawl trilogy and Idoru (though I RAVENOUSLY DEVOURED cyberpunk fic high school and ran a cyberpunk RPG using the Alternity system). But in his later novels, aren't they basically set in the present? More about existing tech than emerging tech?

In the 80s and 90s, cyberpunk seemed to point at this edgy grittyness that was coming with technology and corporate/government integration. And we're definitely living in that grittiness now... The surveillance state isn't a myth about the future, it's something we're all capable of operating. And we live in a world with things like Stuxnet and Anonymous --- it really is like a Gibson novel, no?

Off the top of my  head -- Cory Doctorow's Little Brother seems firmly cyberpunk, even though it doesn't have any fantastic tech, and the emphasis is on the "post 9/11 world" (the kid fights the surveillance/security state by building a network out of modded xboxes).

So I think cyberpunk is alive and well, it's just not explicitly called cyberpunk anymore.

[Cramulus]

BTW, I just want to share my two favorite bits from Neuromancer.....


My favorite opening line to any novel, ever:

The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel

and in this paragraph, Gibson is describing this bartender who is basically half shark.

The bartender's smile widened. His ugliness was the stuff of legend. In an age of affordable beauty, there was something heraldic about his lack of it. The antique arm whined as he reached for another mug. It was a Russian military prosthesis, a seven-function force-feedback manipulator, cased in grubby pink plastic. "You are too much the artiste, Herr Case." Ratz grunted; the sound served him as laughter.

I love that ... in a world of plastic, where you can choose to be one of the beautiful people, the real heroes are the people who go in the opposite direction. THOSE are the real individuals in Gibson's world. They're not heroes. They're people like the ugly bartender whose right arm is outdated war tech, and Molly, who conceals razor blades underneath her burgundy lacquered nails. The real characters have something else going on underneath the cosmetic surface.