Author Topic: Prostitution & feminism  (Read 16391 times)

Elder Iptuous

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2011, 05:56:57 pm »
oh, i agree.
that's why i earlier asked if male prostitutes were seen as being 'empowered'.
(i don't believe this to be so...)
but the exchange, regardless of the arrangement (unless its homosexual prostitution, i guess), represents an inequality, as i see it, no?

Jenne

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2011, 06:01:05 pm »
It's inequality, but it's much more than that.  I have to admit I haven't studied or seen as much on male prostitutes that aren't trannies so I can't speak to that exactly as I could with the documentaries I've seen on street walkers and bunny ranchers.  Unfortunately a large part of what I do know comes from my husband's experiences in his pediatrics practice, along with news stories and what my dad told me about folks when he got out of the clink.

There's still a huge morass of stories I'm waiting to hear about from my dad.  He tries to not tell us about being "on the inside" but it bubbles up and boils over sometimes so that he can't help himself. 

The only person I know in my own life that has been with a prostitute that's admitted it to me besides my husband's estranged best friend is my youngest brother.  And he was too drunk to even get a hand job by the gal. :|  It was a bad night all around.  A humiliating experience such that he'll likely never repeat it.

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2011, 06:09:44 pm »
i guess it depends on the specific definition of feminism being used?
prostitution is inherently a gender based inequality in a sense, so if absolute equality is required for the feminism at hand, it seems to me that the answer would be no.

I'm not big on the whole "let's make up our own definition for this word" thing, so let's just use the definition of feminism that's already in circulation, shall we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #108 on: December 01, 2011, 06:11:40 pm »
oh, i agree.
that's why i earlier asked if male prostitutes were seen as being 'empowered'.
(i don't believe this to be so...)
but the exchange, regardless of the arrangement (unless its homosexual prostitution, i guess), represents an inequality, as i see it, no?

Male prostitutes I have known were definitely not empowered. And while the power imbalance is not necessarily gender-based in that circumstance, there is still a power imbalance which seems incompatible, IMO, with the ideal of equality.
“I’m guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk,” Charles Wick said. “It was very complicated.”


Elder Iptuous

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #109 on: December 01, 2011, 06:24:44 pm »
agreed.

also, I'm happy to use whatever definition you use, but if we are going to refer to an authoritative source, the wiki link gives the impression that 'feminism' is a broad term that is tricky to nail down, as i read it.  otherwise, why the debate on issues such as this? 
Quote
Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights and equal opportunities for women.
If defining what is required is part of the movement, what answer to your question can be expected beyond 'maybe'?

i know that semantics is a bugbear on this board, and i don't want to raise the ire of any, least of all the Dark Empress, so i'll defer to you on any point of language.  :)

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #110 on: December 01, 2011, 06:31:32 pm »
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.

I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.

Then I guess the fact that the majority of prostitutes here hardly speak a word Dutch, is probably just because it is illegal in their country of origin and they came here to fulfil their lifelong dream of becoming a warm-blooded showroom dummy in a red light district?

I don't know if it's different in Australia, but as others said, it's almost synonymous here. Even though there's a union for prostitutes now, and they got all sorts of worker's rights like a normal job, etc. But I guess that's not much use if you're in a trafficking-ish environment. I don't quite believe they're all "trafficked" in the worst meaning of the word, cause since it's legal here it means government and police do keep an eye on what's going on in the red light district of any medium-sized city. But there's just something very fishy about the whole thing, otherwise there'd be just as much Dutch girls, no?

BTW that, and many other reasons named ITT thread so far is why I have never been to a prostitute. One reason I haven't heard, probably because it's personal, is that even if all the other things were the same, the idea that's she's been with so many men and I'm just one of them is unappealing to me. The distinguishing factor is "on the same day/night as me" BTW (because of course I don't expect a woman my age to be a virgin, or anything). But then, there's situations in which that might not be a problem (being with a woman that had sex with other men that day) without a prostitute being involved, so I guess I'm just saying I like sex to be something special to both persons involved.
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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #111 on: December 01, 2011, 06:36:58 pm »
Paradoxically, I'd legalize everything, just to make it safer for these women. But it sucks.

Even though it doesn't seem exactly a pleasant job here, I do believe it gets better/safer for these women when it's legalized.

I also believe that it's not really a thing you can get completely rid of, due to human nature being what it is.

It's funny BTW, the Netherlands is famous for both prostitution being legal and pot being (mostly) legal. Most people I know have tried pot at least once, but I don't believe (though it doesn't really come up in conversation) that many people (among my friends and acquaintances) have been to a prostitute. Interesting thought. I shall raise it as a point of discussion some time :)
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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2011, 06:39:53 pm »
i wonder if i am missing something here.
it seems to me that there is a clear parallel between the unfortunate link between prostitution and violence, and that of the drug trade and violence.
in discussions of drugs the majority view seems to be that we should separate the two issues because the link is mostly caused by the illegality of the act.  why not the same with prostitution?

As I said, legalization doesn't really solve this problem. It does probably help somewhat, and I also think it's a necessary step in the right direction towards solving it (if solveable).
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Placid Dingo

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2011, 08:12:08 pm »
I honestly cannot tell if I'm completely incoherent or if people are reading my posts in a way that they want to try and disregard what in saying.

Of course human trafficking is a real problem. But if human trafficking was exactly the same thing as prostitution nobody would ever be able to argue that it's either empowering or consistent with feminism because by definition you are stripped of your rights and power.

However having no money and going to work for a brothel, is not human trafficking. There's a fair argument to say it's disempowering, or even the stronger argument that it CANNOT be empowering but it is not by definition the same thing as human trafficking. Making a distinction doesn't make me unaware of human trafficking any more than saying Genocide is not the same thing as Homocide makes me a holocaust denier.

Jenne so far as I can tell you're saying everything about prostitution is both damaging and linked to every other damaging facet of the industry, so we should consider human trafficking and any other damaging outcome as synonymous with prostitution as a whole?

I'm ok if you want to say; 'for the purpose of discussing prostitution, I want to consider only prostitution connected to trafficking, or something of the kind, but please don't treat me like a complete moron, especially when every single post has acknowledged how large of a problem human trafficking is, and have specifically noted that it's an issue in Australia (mostly a destination country for trafficking from the local Asian nations and internal from preying on indigenous girls in bad situations).

Addendum; Trips point is good that trafficking does make up a major part of prostitution, and I'll admit to not knowing the exact stats. I do know a lot of Aussie protitutes come from Asian backgrounds in poor areas, though I'm not convncec that they're all trafficked (desperate for a means to earn a livelihood perhaps, which isn't good, but isn't by definition trafficking.) I guess when talking about 'is prostitution femininist' it seems to me important to focus on the variety of scenarios out there not singularly on the most heinous.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 09:44:06 pm by Placid Dingo »
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Hoopla

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2011, 08:46:05 pm »
Pointless anecdote time:  So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine?  One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on.  This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.  

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"

"Yes!" she cried, emphatically.  "And it's fucking sexist.  Where does he get off?  What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?  Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"

"He is paying her to stay off the streets.  Maybe she likes the streets.  Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient.  His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."

"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"

"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."

I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing.  It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid.  Or, so I like to imagine.


Carry on!
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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2011, 09:01:38 pm »
Pointless anecdote time:  So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine?  One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on.  This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.  

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"

"Yes!" she cried, emphatically.  "And it's fucking sexist.  Where does he get off?  What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?  Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"

"He is paying her to stay off the streets.  Maybe she likes the streets.  Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient.  His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."

"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"

"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."

I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing.  It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid.  Or, so I like to imagine.


Carry on!


How the fuck can you stand that shit?  This is why I don't hang out with many people IRL.
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Hoopla

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2011, 09:23:29 pm »
Pointless anecdote time:  So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine?  One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on.  This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.  

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"

"Yes!" she cried, emphatically.  "And it's fucking sexist.  Where does he get off?  What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?  Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"

"He is paying her to stay off the streets.  Maybe she likes the streets.  Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient.  His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."

"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"

"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."

I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing.  It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid.  Or, so I like to imagine.


Carry on!


How the fuck can you stand that shit?  This is why I don't hang out with many people IRL.

This conversation took place close to ten years ago.  I've bittered considerably since then.
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"I contradict myself?  Very well then, I contradict myself; I am large - I contain multitudes."  -Walt Whitman

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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2011, 03:47:40 am »
Pointless anecdote time:  So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine?  One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on.  This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song. 

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"

"Yes!" she cried, emphatically.  "And it's fucking sexist.  Where does he get off?  What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?  Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"

"He is paying her to stay off the streets.  Maybe she likes the streets.  Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient.  His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."

"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"

"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."

I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing.  It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid.  Or, so I like to imagine.


Carry on!


How the fuck can you stand that shit?  This is why I don't hang out with many people IRL.

I enjoy me a good idiot. I'm curious about people's tortured logic so I often keep talking with them until I can't keep a straight face any more. You have to understand that once people say something stupid like that, there are often dense pockets of lulz to mine in their supporting reasoning.

I would have had a field day with that woman.
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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2011, 04:17:46 am »
Pointless anecdote time:  So, anyone remember the Supposedly Green Baby Making Machine?  One time we were at someone's house and the song "Roxanne" by the Police came on.  This chick, who was -of course- pregnant at the time, she always is, starts going on a fucking rant about how she'd like to pop Sting in the mouth with her fist for writing such an insulting sexist song.  

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?"

"Yes!" she cried, emphatically.  "And it's fucking sexist.  Where does he get off?  What gives him the right to say how she can and can't use her body?"

"Wait wait," said I.  "Isn't this song about him paying a prostitute so she doesn't need to hook that night?  Where does it say he thinks he has the right to say how she uses her own body?"

"He is paying her to stay off the streets.  Maybe she likes the streets.  Maybe she likes being completely self sufficient.  His judgement of her is a moral indictment he has no right to be laying on her."

"You think she prefers hooking, possibly getting beaten up any given night, to someone paying her for nothing and going home?"

"Those men shouldn't be beating her up in the first place."

I gave her a "bitch, please" look, but said nothing.  It was then that she brought up the priestesses of Aphrodite, at which point the fetus in her womb punched her in the cunt for being so fucking stupid.  Or, so I like to imagine.


Carry on!


Holy fuck. That's like Marlo Thomas on meth.  :horrormirth:
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Re: Prostitution & feminism
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2011, 01:57:04 pm »
Holy fuck. That's like Marlo Thomas on meth.  :horrormirth:

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