"Proof" that homophobia is associated with homosexual arousal.

Started by Kai, December 09, 2011, 05:35:08 PM

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Elder Iptuous

it is purely academic, as i am the first in 5 generations to have more than one son. :)
however, if i had not had a son, i would love all of my many daughters with all my heart.

Luna

Quote from: Iptuous on December 12, 2011, 10:04:56 PM

as far as the genetics, i do understand what you describe.  whether my desire to continue a male line is irrational or not is beside the point.  it is something i desire, and having my son(s) turn out to be gay would lessen the likelihood that they have children (and necessarily, therefore, a male child) and so i would be disappointed.  not in them, by any means.  just in the situation which isn't anybody's fault. but according to that question, which i used as just one example, i would therefore have negative feelings towards homosexuality.  i do not agree.


There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that being gay would prevent one from becoming a parent.  It just makes you less likely to become one by accident.  A friend of mine is a surrogate parent, and has recently given a second couple of married men a child which is biologically one of theirs.
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"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

Quote from: The Payne on November 16, 2011, 07:08:55 PM
If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

Quote from: Nigel on March 24, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

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Quote from: Luna on December 12, 2011, 10:27:08 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on December 12, 2011, 10:04:56 PM

as far as the genetics, i do understand what you describe.  whether my desire to continue a male line is irrational or not is beside the point.  it is something i desire, and having my son(s) turn out to be gay would lessen the likelihood that they have children (and necessarily, therefore, a male child) and so i would be disappointed.  not in them, by any means.  just in the situation which isn't anybody's fault. but according to that question, which i used as just one example, i would therefore have negative feelings towards homosexuality.  i do not agree.


There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that being gay would prevent one from becoming a parent.  It just makes you less likely to become one by accident.  A friend of mine is a surrogate parent, and has recently given a second couple of married men a child which is biologically one of theirs.

This is true, especially in a social climate that allows gays to be out and marry their partners. I know several gay couples with children.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


LMNO

Thank you, Luna.

I was sort of reading this with my mouth agape thinking, "why is everyone forgetting SCIENCE?" I must redirect everyone to my point about homosexuality and irrationality.

Luna

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on December 12, 2011, 10:54:29 PM
Thank you, Luna.

I was sort of reading this with my mouth agape thinking, "why is everyone forgetting SCIENCE?" I must redirect everyone to my point about homosexuality and irrationality.

Yeah, I know.   :|
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
Pagan-Stomping Valkyrie of the Interbutts™
Rampaging Slayer of Shit-Fountain Habitues

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

Quote from: The Payne on November 16, 2011, 07:08:55 PM
If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

Quote from: Nigel on March 24, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

Quote
"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

East Coast Hustle

Quote from: Triple Zero on December 12, 2011, 10:09:48 PM
QuoteActually, I think I do agree with Ippy that it's basically impossible to construct one of these test in a manner that renders it "non-bullshit", for lack of a better term.

If, indeed, that was Ippy's thought on the matter. But it is mine.

I also think that I object to your attempt to place a moral value judgment on someone's feelings about something like being disappointed that their child is infertile. It's not wrong OR right, it's just how someone feels. And there's also nothing inherently wrong with that person keeping those feelings to themself if those feelings are directed at a circumstance rather than at the person who finds themselves in that circumstance, especially if they care about that person and know that their disappointment towards an uncontrollable circumstance would hurt that person's feelings unnecessarily.

You know what, I've thought about it some more and I think you and Iptuous are right, on the second thing you said. It is okay to feel sad or disappointed about your son not being able to make you grandkids. In fact putting it like that it kind of feels stupid to say otherwise. And if the son being homosexual means you won't get grandkids, I suppose that's similar. I suppose I don't place as much value on progeny myself, but that's personal. It still also hinges on a rather subtle and careful meaning of the word "disappointed", though, which is what threw me off at first.

For the first part, I still disagree. Maybe not for making a test which, with certainty says "you are/are not a homophobe", but in the context of larger research to determine a trend of "homophobes are more likely to X", I think it's definitely possible to construct a test which would suit that purpose.

Which is an excellent example of why it's so stupid to let the test subjects score themselves, because they'll feel personally judged by such a test, get all bothered and maybe try to second-guess the answers. It should be conducted with the subjects anonymized, which is also part of proper methodology.

So I'll repeat, the test in this research is indeed pretty inaccurate.

Ahh....thanks for the clarification! Makes sense to me.
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Elder Iptuous

when i said the likelihood would be less, i was speaking statistically.
i understand that it is certainly possible.
although i haven't really looked at the numbers, i would be shocked to find out that homosexuals are now bearing their own offspring anywhere near the rate of heterosexuals.  i would be shocked to see that there is any trend that would indicate that this even in the medium term future.
i figured i didn't have to use e-prime since i said 'less likely'.

it is, at any rate, a small reason that i would be 'disappointed' if my child turned out to be gay, relative to the disappointment in knowing that my child's life would be fraught with derision, which in turn, was only a point of contention in one question that raised an eyebrow on this test for me...

Faust

Quote from: Igor on December 12, 2011, 09:33:06 PM

I came across another definition of homophobia today:
The fear that gay men will treat you the same way you treat women.


So did I, on one of my Irish friend (From Dublin)'s facebook page. Wouldn't be the same person would it?
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Phox

Quote from: Faust on December 13, 2011, 08:57:25 AM
Quote from: Igor on December 12, 2011, 09:33:06 PM

I came across another definition of homophobia today:
The fear that gay men will treat you the same way you treat women.


So did I, on one of my Irish friend (From Dublin)'s facebook page. Wouldn't be the same person would it?
I've seen it floating around recently as well.

Igor

I saw it on Dan Savage's blog. Just seems to be a particularly repeatable memebomb.
Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise.

Luna

Friend of mine (who happens to be gay) explained that to me a decade ago.   :lulz:
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
Pagan-Stomping Valkyrie of the Interbutts™
Rampaging Slayer of Shit-Fountain Habitues

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

Quote from: The Payne on November 16, 2011, 07:08:55 PM
If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

Quote from: Nigel on March 24, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

Quote
"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I personally think that the "they will face struggles and derision" shape of disappointment is itself a form of hatred. People said (and still say) exactly the same thing about blacks marrying whites. You could almost say the same thing about people choosing to become artists or scientists.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Elder Iptuous

could you explain how it is a form of hatred?  or even antipathy of any sort?

(just thinking out loud here...)
If the sexuality of the child was somehow determined by the parents, would you choose to have the child be gay?

the comparison to race is interesting.  the skin tone of the child (to a decent degree) is known when the decision to have a child is made.  is this inconsistency in the analogy significant?

i wonder what percentage of homosexuals would choose to have children if they knew that the child would also be gay.
i wonder what percentage would choose to have a child that would be gay if they somehow had a choice in it.
if a gay person has a child, and it turns out to be gay, and they are disappointed in knowing that the child will likely endure the significant difficulties that they had to go through, would this be a form of self loathing?

I can see how it might be considered 'negative' in that it could be seen as caving into the unfortunate cultural bigotry in some way, but i don't see how it as hatred by any stretch.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

The "if you could choose" question is nothing more than a red herring. Because you can't choose. But following that line of reasoning, you seem to be saying that people make the choice to fall in love with a person of another race, and then to conceive a child with them. Sure, it's a choice... but is it wrong? Would you be disappointed if your son married a black girl? Because of the difficulty they and their progeny would face in an intolerant society?

There is a roughly 1 in 10 chance that any child will be gay, and you know that when you make the decision to have a child.

You really don't think that embracing the negative aspects of a person's reality is a form of hatred? Disappointment in their gayness is not exactly a warm fuzzy.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Elder Iptuous

no.  it's certainly not wrong.  neither would be having a child that you knew somehow would be gay.   however,I wouldn't choose it, and although it's an impossibility to choose, it's not really a red herring, because it illustrates that i think it would not be a desirable trait, even if not a bad trait.  that distinction is pertinent because i believe it shows how one could be disappointed by their child being gay while not being a manifestation of any antipathy towards being gay.

Quote from: Nigel on December 14, 2011, 02:28:30 AM
You really don't think that embracing the negative aspects of a person's reality is a form of hatred?
I'm not quite able to parse this question...

I certainly concede that expressing disappointment in my child's gayness would not be a warm fuzzy.  and i assuredly wouldn't do that!
At risk of mixing disappointment about a circumstance and disappointment in behavior... I know i have disappointed my parents in some regards. ( i've heard it said that all parents are disappointed to some degree in their children, and all children are embarrassed to some degree in their parents.) It would sting to hear them express it to me, but they would never do that.  because they are good, loving parents. (even though they can be embarrassing at times!)