"Proof" that homophobia is associated with homosexual arousal.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

 I have several issues with Iptuous' statements.

One is his use of the word "ambivalent". Iptuous, are you actually "ambivalent" about working with gays, or do you simply not know what that word means?

Another is the statement that you would be disappointed to have a gay child because of the reduced likelihood that the child would pass on your Y chromosome. Again, I can't tell whether you actually meant what you said, or whether you simply have a poor grasp of genetics and don't know that men can pass on a Y chromosome, resulting in a male child, or an X chromosome, resulting in a female child. The way your statement is worded implies an odd bias.

Basically, I am unwilling to seriously consider your criticism of the screening test due to what appears to be a mild form of illiteracy.

I have not yet read the study, and hope they clarify whether or not they included test subjects who scored ambivalently on the homophobia screening, or whether they included only subjects who scored as strongly homophobic and strongly non-homophobic.

[LMNO]

Increase in penis circumference is a nice, unbiased estimator of arousal.

I just want to chime in on this methodology --- changes in penis circumference are the best methods we've got right now, but it's not universally accepted as a valid measure.

When I was in college, we read a bunch of arousal studies like this. My professors were collectively skeptical that people have genuine arousal responses when they're sitting in a lab, have a little band wrapped around their johnson, and are aware that their responses are being recorded by scientists.

And you can only do these sort of measurements with men, it's hard to say that this is a general human principle and not just some bizarre artifact of male psychology.


/pedantry

I'll also offer TMI and say that there have been scenarios¹ where I have found myself being moderately aroused² while fully knowing that if it was presented IRL, I would be utterly disgusted and turned off.

A form of horrormirth, if you will.  A depraved and dispicable one, to be sure.




LMNO
-don't hate the sink, hate the plumbing.









¹see: tools for tools like you
²"quarter chub" --enough to register on a peter meter

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Increase in penis circumference is a nice, unbiased estimator of arousal.

I just want to chime in on this methodology --- changes in penis circumference are the best methods we've got right now, but it's not universally accepted as a valid measure.

When I was in college, we read a bunch of arousal studies like this. My professors were collectively skeptical that people have genuine arousal responses when they're sitting in a lab, have a little band wrapped around their johnson, and are aware that their responses are being recorded by scientists.

And you can only do these sort of measurements with men, it's hard to say that this is a general human principle and not just some bizarre artifact of male psychology.


/pedantry

Hm, actually you can do something similar with women and there was a recent study utilizing technology that measured female arousal responses... the instrumentation is more sophisticated, of course, but it exists.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I have hostility toward Gays.

But I have an equal, identical hostility toward Straights.  

Both are primates, and I can't fucking stand them.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Sorry about being so pedantic this morning.

[Freeky]

I can't quite form the words in a discussion context, but what about this:

homophobe > gay porn > RAGE HATE > thoughts of violence towards gays > arousal


Or something like that.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I can't quite form the words in a discussion context, but what about this:

homophobe > gay porn > RAGE HATE > thoughts of violence towards gays > arousal


Or something like that.

According to the article,

this study does differentiate from arousal that can result from anger and specifies the arousal measured as sexual.

[Freeky]

I can't quite form the words in a discussion context, but what about this:

homophobe > gay porn > RAGE HATE > thoughts of violence towards gays > arousal


Or something like that.

According to the article,

this study does differentiate from arousal that can result from anger and specifies the arousal measured as sexual.

Is it the same thing?  Getting aroused by the thought of committing violence, and arousal from anger?

If so, I have learned something today.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I can't quite form the words in a discussion context, but what about this:

homophobe > gay porn > RAGE HATE > thoughts of violence towards gays > arousal


Or something like that.

According to the article,

this study does differentiate from arousal that can result from anger and specifies the arousal measured as sexual.

Is it the same thing?  Getting aroused by the thought of committing violence, and arousal from anger?

If so, I have learned something today.

Initially misread... yes, they are the same.

[Freeky]

I can't quite form the words in a discussion context, but what about this:

homophobe > gay porn > RAGE HATE > thoughts of violence towards gays > arousal


Or something like that.

According to the article,

this study does differentiate from arousal that can result from anger and specifies the arousal measured as sexual.

Is it the same thing?  Getting aroused by the thought of committing violence, and arousal from anger?

If so, I have learned something today.

Initially misread... yes, they are the same.

Oh, my bad.

[Igor]

I came across another definition of homophobia today:
The fear that gay men will treat you the same way you treat women.

[Elder Iptuous]

Nigel,
Yes, i misspoke using the word 'ambivalent'.  i meant to say that i don't care one way or the other.  i've been misusing that word for years, it would appear. 

as far as the genetics, i do understand what you describe.  whether my desire to continue a male line is irrational or not is beside the point.  it is something i desire, and having my son(s) turn out to be gay would lessen the likelihood that they have children (and necessarily, therefore, a male child) and so i would be disappointed.  not in them, by any means.  just in the situation which isn't anybody's fault. but according to that question, which i used as just one example, i would therefore have negative feelings towards homosexuality.  i do not agree.

i have slightly improved my literacy on one front (thank you), and hopefully dispelled the appearance of such on the other?

[Triple Zero]

Actually, I think I do agree with Ippy that it's basically impossible to construct one of these test in a manner that renders it "non-bullshit", for lack of a better term.

If, indeed, that was Ippy's thought on the matter. But it is mine.

I also think that I object to your attempt to place a moral value judgment on someone's feelings about something like being disappointed that their child is infertile. It's not wrong OR right, it's just how someone feels. And there's also nothing inherently wrong with that person keeping those feelings to themself if those feelings are directed at a circumstance rather than at the person who finds themselves in that circumstance, especially if they care about that person and know that their disappointment towards an uncontrollable circumstance would hurt that person's feelings unnecessarily.

You know what, I've thought about it some more and I think you and Iptuous are right, on the second thing you said. It is okay to feel sad or disappointed about your son not being able to make you grandkids. In fact putting it like that it kind of feels stupid to say otherwise. And if the son being homosexual means you won't get grandkids, I suppose that's similar. I suppose I don't place as much value on progeny myself, but that's personal. It still also hinges on a rather subtle and careful meaning of the word "disappointed", though, which is what threw me off at first.

For the first part, I still disagree. Maybe not for making a test which, with certainty says "you are/are not a homophobe", but in the context of larger research to determine a trend of "homophobes are more likely to X", I think it's definitely possible to construct a test which would suit that purpose.

Which is an excellent example of why it's so stupid to let the test subjects score themselves, because they'll feel personally judged by such a test, get all bothered and maybe try to second-guess the answers. It should be conducted with the subjects anonymized, which is also part of proper methodology.

So I'll repeat, the test in this research is indeed pretty inaccurate.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Nigel,
Yes, i misspoke using the word 'ambivalent'.  i meant to say that i don't care one way or the other.  i've been misusing that word for years, it would appear. 

as far as the genetics, i do understand what you describe.  whether my desire to continue a male line is irrational or not is beside the point.  it is something i desire, and having my son(s) turn out to be gay would lessen the likelihood that they have children (and necessarily, therefore, a male child) and so i would be disappointed.  not in them, by any means.  just in the situation which isn't anybody's fault. but according to that question, which i used as just one example, i would therefore have negative feelings towards homosexuality.  i do not agree.

i have slightly improved my literacy on one front (thank you), and hopefully dispelled the appearance of such on the other?

So I take it you would also be disappointed by having a daughter?

[Freeky]

So I take it you would also be disappointed by having a daughter?

This is sort of tangentially related, but this question jogged my memory on this.  

My ex (who we all know is in fact an idiot and quite probably a bit of a douche), when I was prego and didn't know if it was a boy or a girl, expressed the hope that it wasn't a girl, flat out.  He professed that it wasn't because he didn't want a daughter, nor that he'd be disappointed if the monkey turned out to be a girl, but I still feel like he wasn't being genuine with his explanations (worries about girl getting prego, always sleep with a gun under the pillow, etc etc.).  I feel as though if the monkey HAD been a girl (and he, the ex, already had two boys) he would have treated her differently, as something less-than.

He does this anyway, and did before I split with him (at least from my perception), but I think its mostly because he was never married to me and so doesn't see his responsibility to the monkey as equal in importance (maybe).