Khore in the Chapel Perilous

[Phox]

I do not know where the information comes from, is simply a mindfuck.

I think what he means is that the origins of an idea are not relevant in the determination of its usefulness or even its truth value.

It's like a fever, and then they can call it as they want but when is happening to you it really has not cure.

If whatever he experienced while he was in the abyss or wherever makes sense to him now, then it doesn't really matter if he was having a schizophrenic hallucination or a mystical experience.

Of course, he hasn't yet explained what exactly were the contents of his mindfuck.

Maybe I'm just putting words in his mouth, but hey, Hermeneutics is fun!

Hmmm. I will reserve judgement until Khore elucidates.

[LMNO]

He won't.

[Phox]

He won't.

Oh, I don't expect him to, LMNO. I expect him to bail like he did in the prostitution thread. But nevertheless...

[Khore]

Please stop treating me in a special way, I'm a little tired.

He won't.

Why not?

I do not know where the information comes from, is simply a mindfuck.

I think what he means is that the origins of an idea are not relevant in the determination of its usefulness or even its truth value.

It's like a fever, and then they can call it as they want but when is happening to you it really has not cure.

If whatever he experienced while he was in the abyss or wherever makes sense to him now, then it doesn't really matter if he was having a schizophrenic hallucination or a mystical experience.

Of course, he hasn't yet explained what exactly were the contents of his mindfuck.

Maybe I'm just putting words in his mouth, but hey, Hermeneutics is fun!

Exactly, and my mindfuck was pretty horrible, everything was a conspiracy, reality turned against me. My true sanity hanging by a thread. I fled from the hospital 2 times. Everything was to be in a separate reality created by my biggest fears.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Lemme guess, you read that off the back of a Hitchcock DVD, right?

[Khore]

Lemme guess, you read that off the back of a Hitchcock DVD, right?

No...

[Phox]

Please stop treating me in a special way, I'm a little tired.

He won't.

Why not?

I do not know where the information comes from, is simply a mindfuck.

I think what he means is that the origins of an idea are not relevant in the determination of its usefulness or even its truth value.

It's like a fever, and then they can call it as they want but when is happening to you it really has not cure.

If whatever he experienced while he was in the abyss or wherever makes sense to him now, then it doesn't really matter if he was having a schizophrenic hallucination or a mystical experience.

Of course, he hasn't yet explained what exactly were the contents of his mindfuck.

Maybe I'm just putting words in his mouth, but hey, Hermeneutics is fun!

Exactly, and my mindfuck was pretty horrible, everything was a conspiracy, reality turned against me. My true sanity hanging by a thread. I fled from the hospital 2 times. Everything was to be in a separate reality created by my biggest fears.

Hogswallop. Pretentious drivel and meaningless buzzwords.

Mierda. Tonterías pretencioso y buzzwords (no sé el equivalente español) sin sentido.

This is what i expected it to mean, but I wanted to be absolutely certain it wasn't just the language issue. What I'm going to say is this: you are trying way, way too hard. Everything you are saying is coming off as self-aggrandizing garbage. I'll grant, certainly, that I do not know you or know your experiences, but your use of esoteric and, frankly, pompous terminology suggests to me, and I'm sure to others here, that you are a self-important person, and regardless of the truth values of what you say your experiences are, many people here are simply going to ignore you.

The problems with your ideas are many. Let's use the example of a hallucination related to mental illness or a mystical experience. Both of these, for my money, are flawed places to put trust. In the former, you are relying on a state of mind that is by definition problematic and detached from reality. In the latter, the idea of a "mystical experience" is too vague and can mean anything from the previously discussed hallucination to a vivid acid trip, or any number of other things with varying degrees of association with objective reality. How this all relates to Chapel Perilous.... well, I suppose I should ask for clarification.

What point are you trying to get across with this statement?

Esto es lo que me esperaba que esto significa, pero yo quería estar absolutamente seguro de que no era sólo la cuestión del idioma. ¿Qué voy a decir es esto: usted está tratando de la manera, manera demasiado dura. Todo lo que estamos diciendo es que viene de auto-engrandecimiento de la basura. Voy a conceder, por cierto, que yo no te conozco ni sé de sus experiencias, pero el uso de esotéricos y, francamente, la terminología pomposa me hace pensar, y estoy seguro que a los demás aquí, que usted es una persona engreída , e independientemente de los valores de verdad de lo que usted dice sus experiencias son, muchas personas aquí son simplemente va a ignorar.

Los problemas con sus ideas son muchas. Usemos el ejemplo de una alucinación relacionada con una enfermedad mental o una experiencia mística. Ambos, en mi opinión, son los lugares defectuosos para depositar su confianza. En el primer caso, usted está confiando en un estado de ánimo que es, por definición, problemática y aleja de la realidad. En este último caso, la idea de una "experiencia mística" es demasiado vago y puede significar cualquier cosa, desde la alucinación anteriormente a un viaje de ácido vivos, o cualquier número de otras cosas, con distintos grados de asociación con la realidad objetiva. Cómo todo esto se relaciona con Chapel Perilous .... Bueno, supongo que debería pedir una aclaración.

¿Qué estás tratando de transmitir con esta afirmación?


^ Más Googlese de lo habitual, lo siento.

[Khore]

I try to say that the Chapel Perilous is real, and you can interpret it as you like, each one will think something different but in essence is the same general feeling. Some are after her schizophrenic, some not, some think they have had a mystical experience, every one will think differently... and will stay with certain beliefs, but what is the Chapel Perilous will remain the same. It is a mental state of being lost, to be absolutely outside of reality. But you realize that your mind is precisely what makes it real, so you're in another dimension as other laws and is therefore equally valid different reality than what you're experiencing right now.

Intento decir que la Capilla Peligrosa es real, y que puedes interpretarla como quieras, cada uno pensará una cosa diferente pero en esencia es el mismo sentir general. Unos después de ella quedan esquizofrenicos, otros no, otros piensan que han tenido una experiencia mística, cada uno pensará de una manera diferente... y se quedará con ciertas creencias, pero lo que es la Capilla Peligrosa seguirá siendo lo mismo. Es un estado mental de estar perdido. Pero te das cuenta que es precisamente tu mente lo que lo hace real, así que estás como en otra dimensión con otras leyes y es por tanto otra realidad igual de válida que la que estás experimentando ahora mismo.

[LMNO]

It is a mental state of being lost, to be absolutely outside of reality. But you realize that your mind is precisely what makes it real, so you're in another dimension as other laws and is therefore equally valid different reality than what you're experiencing right now.

I agree that it is a mental state, but you dance into the realm of poetry over pragmatics when you say that you are "outside of reality" and that it is "equally valid". 

We came up with the parable of the Barstool Experiment for precisely this reason.  Your brain may be firing weird and unusual neural patterns which fuck with your perceptions even more than usual, but that doesn't mean your experiential reality has changed; only your interpretation.

To put it in terms Robert Anton Wilson would use: Chapel Perilous is a map that has almost nothing to do with the territory you're in.

Estoy de acuerdo que es un estado mental, pero se baila en el reino de la poesía más pragmática cuando se dice que está "fuera de la realidad" y que es "igualmente válidas".

Se nos ocurrió con la parábola del experimento Barstool precisamente por esta razón. Su cerebro puede disparar patrones neuronales raro e inusual que coger con sus percepciones, incluso más de lo habitual, pero eso no quiere decir que su realidad de la experiencia ha cambiado, sólo su interpretación.

Para ponerlo en términos de Robert Anton Wilson debería usar: Peligrosa Capilla es un mapa que no tiene casi nada que ver con el territorio que está adentro.

[Phox]

It is a mental state of being lost, to be absolutely outside of reality. But you realize that your mind is precisely what makes it real, so you're in another dimension as other laws and is therefore equally valid different reality than what you're experiencing right now.

I agree that it is a mental state, but you dance into the realm of poetry over pragmatics when you say that you are "outside of reality" and that it is "equally valid". 

We came up with the parable of the Barstool Experiment for precisely this reason.  Your brain may be firing weird and unusual neural patterns which fuck with your perceptions even more than usual, but that doesn't mean your experiential reality has changed; only your interpretation.

To put it in terms Robert Anton Wilson would use: Chapel Perilous is a map that has almost nothing to do with the territory you're in.

Estoy de acuerdo que es un estado mental, pero se baila en el reino de la poesía más pragmática cuando se dice que está "fuera de la realidad" y que es "igualmente válidas".

Se nos ocurrió con la parábola del experimento Barstool precisamente por esta razón. Su cerebro puede disparar patrones neuronales raro e inusual que coger con sus percepciones, incluso más de lo habitual, pero eso no quiere decir que su realidad de la experiencia ha cambiado, sólo su interpretación.

Para ponerlo en términos de Robert Anton Wilson debería usar: Peligrosa Capilla es un mapa que no tiene casi nada que ver con el territorio que está adentro.

What this guy said.

In short, living outside of reality, objective, concrete reality, is not beneficial, from my point of view.

Lo que este hombre, dijo.

En resumen, si usted vive fuera de la realidad, el objetivo, la realidad concreta, no es beneficioso, desde mi punto de vista.

[Khore]

Yes I agree, but would have to see to what extent the "consensus" creates reality. For if a single mind can hallucinate anything, imagine collectively.

Sí estoy de acuerdo, aunque habría que ver hasta que punto el "consenso" crea la realidad. Pues si una sola mente puede alucinar cualquier cosa, imagínense colectivamente.

[Phox]

Yes I agree, but would have to see to what extent the "consensus" creates reality. For if a single mind can hallucinate anything, imagine collectively.

Sí estoy de acuerdo, aunque habría que ver hasta que punto el "consenso" crea la realidad. Pues si una sola mente puede alucinar cualquier cosa, imagínense colectivamente.

It doesn't. Reality is objective, even if everyone everywhere *believes* differently

No lo hace. La realidad es objetiva, con independencia de que todos en todas partes *tiene una opinión* diferente.

[P3nT4gR4m]

To all intents and purposes there is no objective reality. Actually there probably is but none of us will ever experience it because we filter it through our senses and brains. The objective reality happens to you (a heavy mass connects with your immediate mass, at speed) You either experience a barstool or a unicorn based on your filters. Adhering to one of these filters will get you laughed out the pub, the other might get you a beer on the house.

The reality you exist within is objective but the way you interact with it is subjective and based on consensus. Most people don't understand this and will take great offence if you see a unicorn instead of a barstool and this makes you exponentially more likely to be on the receiving end of many more unicorn-beatings than you would otherwise.

[LMNO]

Yes I agree, but would have to see to what extent the "consensus" creates reality. For if a single mind can hallucinate anything, imagine collectively.

Sí estoy de acuerdo, aunque habría que ver hasta que punto el "consenso" crea la realidad. Pues si una sola mente puede alucinar cualquier cosa, imagínense colectivamente.

I think this is where the language barrier becomes tricky.  We are using the word "reality" in two separate ways.  I am using it in terms of physics: Mass, gravity, subatomic probability fields, and all the rest.  You're using it, it seems to me, as the interpretation of those things.  We can all collectively hallucinate that you have wings, but you'll still plummet to the ground if you try to fly off a building.

Creo que aquí es donde la barrera del idioma se convierte en difícil. Estamos usando la palabra "realidad" de dos maneras diferentes. Lo estoy usando en términos de la física: masa, gravedad, campos subatómicas probabilidad, y todo lo demás. Usted lo está utilizando, me parece a mí, como la interpretación de las cosas. Todos podemos colectivamente alucinaciones que tienen alas, pero aún así caen al suelo si se intenta volar un edificio.

[Khore]

Yes I agree, but would have to see to what extent the "consensus" creates reality. For if a single mind can hallucinate anything, imagine collectively.

Sí estoy de acuerdo, aunque habría que ver hasta que punto el "consenso" crea la realidad. Pues si una sola mente puede alucinar cualquier cosa, imagínense colectivamente.

I think this is where the language barrier becomes tricky.  We are using the word "reality" in two separate ways.  I am using it in terms of physics: Mass, gravity, subatomic probability fields, and all the rest.  You're using it, it seems to me, as the interpretation of those things.  We can all collectively hallucinate that you have wings, but you'll still plummet to the ground if you try to fly off a building.

Creo que aquí es donde la barrera del idioma se convierte en difícil. Estamos usando la palabra "realidad" de dos maneras diferentes. Lo estoy usando en términos de la física: masa, gravedad, campos subatómicas probabilidad, y todo lo demás. Usted lo está utilizando, me parece a mí, como la interpretación de las cosas. Todos podemos colectivamente alucinaciones que tienen alas, pero aún así caen al suelo si se intenta volar un edificio.

Yes it's true. There are two realities, I wonder if one can interact with each other but do not think so. Although the chapel is that, from a place where you can change the objective reality only through your mind, that's what creates all the bad trip, I guess like a bad acid trip. However, if we can not change the objective reality is we do not know yet. In the future, who knows.

Sí es verdad. Hay dos realidades, me pregunto si una puede interactuar con la otra pero no lo creo. Aunque la Capilla se trata de eso, de un lugar donde sí puedes cambiar la realidad objetiva solo mediante tu mente, eso es lo que crea todo el mal viaje, supongo que como un mal viaje de ácido. De todas maneras, si no podemos cambiar la realidad objetiva todavía es porque no sabemos. En un futuro quien sabe.

Yes I agree, but would have to see to what extent the "consensus" creates reality. For if a single mind can hallucinate anything, imagine collectively.

Sí estoy de acuerdo, aunque habría que ver hasta que punto el "consenso" crea la realidad. Pues si una sola mente puede alucinar cualquier cosa, imagínense colectivamente.

It doesn't. Reality is objective, even if everyone everywhere *believes* differently

No lo hace. La realidad es objetiva, con independencia de que todos en todas partes *tiene una opinión* diferente.

The reality is divided into the observed and the observer ... I think. Anyway, the reality is based on the exterior and interior, and the interior is different. External reality to us is not that we "ignore" but is indifferent to us, does not happen with the fire that "burns with desire" to burn us.

If we take into account the "Siddhis" maybe if I can change the objective but this might be a myth.

La realidad se divide en la observada y en al del observador... creo. De todas maneras la realidad se basa en la exterior y la interior, y la interior sí es diferente. Para la realidad exterior nosotros no es que nos "ignore" sino que le somos indiferente, no pasa eso con el fuego, que "arde en deseos" de quemarnos.

Si tenemos en cuenta lo de los "Siddhis" quizás si pueda cambiar la objetiva pero eso quizás sea un mito.