Uncomfortable topics: Let's talk about race

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Going back a little bit i always found the black people fried chicken to be a weird one. Of course they do. Theyre humans. Kinda like "what you dont like fried chicken? Whats wrong with you?"

It derives not so much from black people liking fried chicken (and watermelon) but from the old blackface minstrel shows, in which white men would put on blackface and then perform extremely denigrating caricatures of negroes on the plantations of the South. These shows were incredibly popular in cities like New York, and the "negro-ness" of the actors was accentuated by having them overweeningly enthusiastic about foods that would have been specifically Southern at the time, most especially fried chicken and watermelon.

The reason those became negative stereotypes is not because black people loved fried chicken and watermelon, but because white people masqueraded as black people and made fun of them loving fried chicken and watermelon. http://etext.virginia.edu/railton/huckfinn/minstrl.html

I often hear "I don't understand why" and it is my first clue that a big chunk of information is missing. I hope that helps to fill it.

[Don Coyote]

Going back a little bit i always found the black people fried chicken to be a weird one. Of course they do. Theyre humans. Kinda like "what you dont like fried chicken? Whats wrong with you?"

It derives not so much from black people liking fried chicken (and watermelon) but from the old blackface minstrel shows, in which white men would put on blackface and then perform extremely denigrating caricatures of negroes on the plantations of the South. These shows were incredibly popular in cities like New York, and the "negro-ness" of the actors was accentuated by having them overweeningly enthusiastic about foods that would have been specifically Southern at the time, most especially fried chicken and watermelon.

The reason those became negative stereotypes is not because black people loved fried chicken and watermelon, but because white people masqueraded as black people and made fun of them loving fried chicken and watermelon. http://etext.virginia.edu/railton/huckfinn/minstrl.html

I often hear "I don't understand why" and it is my first clue that a big chunk of information is missing. I hope that helps to fill it.

Well that makes a whole hell of a lot of sense. I just accepted it as this weird stereotype that made no sense because I was white and not from the South.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Ah. That does make a lot of sense now. And youre right- i probably have quite a few information gaps on this topic.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Here are a few examples that might help clarify a little bit about racism in America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p_jxA4p1Wk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsIzUVavf6o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZvGNONdleg&feature=related

[Don Coyote]

Fuck, now all the animal print clothing makes sense, and that's horrible.

[East Coast Hustle]

AFAIK, I'm the only honkey here who's been on the other side of this.

And I sure as hell see race. And I am intimately acquainted with not being able to escape my race in social and professional settings. I've been jumped and had my ass kicked, had rocks thrown at me, been threatened with guns, been subject to arbitrarily high prices on merchandise, and been denied jobs for literally no other reason than the color of my skin. I'm aware that it's given me a perspective that most white people in Americanada/Europe/Australia won't ever have (and let me preempt anyone who is about to say some dumb shit like "BUT I LIVED IN THE GHETTO" by assuring you that it's not even remotely the same - you can take a bus out of the ghetto, not so much on an island) and it's high on the list of things I'm thankful for in regards to my unusual upbringing. And yeah, most white people in the "western world" who "don't see race" are probably well-meaning, but they're also not doing anything to advance the dialogue and help actually overcome the problem. I've had my life literally saved because somebody present in a bad situation did see race and realized that if they didn't come to my defense I was going to be murdered in cold blood for being white. Had I been black, in that same situation, they would likely have assumed that I was the victim of gang/drug-related violence just like almost all of the other homicide victims in the VI and looked the other way (like any smart person would).

In short, fuck the whole "I don't see race" thing. I know you guys mean well but it's the exact wrong way to go about it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I might not get to see those for a day or two. Last time i was at my apt (almost a week ago. Damn.) the internet was out. Not sure if that has been rectified.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

You know what's funny?  I wanted KFC for my birthday. 

WHAT?  It was my fucking birthday.

Anyway, neither of the boy's girlfriends would eat it.  They don't like fried chicken. So even stereotypes have their exceptions 

I was very happy... just meant more for me... 

Are they black? A lot of younger black people won't eat fried chicken and say they don't like it because of the stigma attached to the stereotype.

I'm not saying it's not possible that they just don't like it, of course, but that is really common these days. I know whole families who have never had fried chicken because the aversion runs so deep. Truly a shame, because I think the stuff is ambrosia and if it wasn't so fattening I'd be all over that shit.

That said, there is a reason there are two Popeyes in my neighborhood and none anywhere else in the city... lots of blacks came here from the South in the 60's and 70's, and they weren't allowed to buy houses elsewhere in Portland so they all ended up in the redline district. http://signonpdx.com/post/1021288778/redline-district

By the way, that show "Portlandia", if you've seen it, is shot entirely within the redline district, which is why it pisses me off so much that everyone shown in it, even extras, are white. The hide & seek episode was filmed at my school, which is more than half black.

[East Coast Hustle]

There aren't just two Popeyes' in your neighborhood, they're on the same block, or nearly so. Which is probably a reflection of how Portland deals with race in a larger sense.

but don't worry, in another year or two one of them will probably be turned into a new high-end gourmet fried chicken joint by the guys who run Clarklewis.

And yeah, fuck Portlandia in the ass with a sharp stick. I mean, it's not even funny AT ALL, in addition to be racist by omission.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

AFAIK, I'm the only honkey here who's been on the other side of this.

And I sure as hell see race. And I am intimately acquainted with not being able to escape my race in social and professional settings. I've been jumped and had my ass kicked, had rocks thrown at me, been threatened with guns, been subject to arbitrarily high prices on merchandise, and been denied jobs for literally no other reason than the color of my skin. I'm aware that it's given me a perspective that most white people in Americanada/Europe/Australia won't ever have (and let me preempt anyone who is about to say some dumb shit like "BUT I LIVED IN THE GHETTO" by assuring you that it's not even remotely the same - you can take a bus out of the ghetto, not so much on an island) and it's high on the list of things I'm thankful for in regards to my unusual upbringing. And yeah, most white people in the "western world" who "don't see race" are probably well-meaning, but they're also not doing anything to advance the dialogue and help actually overcome the problem. I've had my life literally saved because somebody present in a bad situation did see race and realized that if they didn't come to my defense I was going to be murdered in cold blood for being white. Had I been black, in that same situation, they would likely have assumed that I was the victim of gang/drug-related violence just like almost all of the other homicide victims in the VI and looked the other way (like any smart person would).

In short, fuck the whole "I don't see race" thing. I know you guys mean well but it's the exact wrong way to go about it.

Right on.

It's funny, since early on I've assumed you aren't white, because although you look white, you seem to function more from a... dare I say it... colored perspective.

[Kai]

It's racist because of the transgressive context of taking a studio portrait of a black family and making it into a .gif in which all members of the family are doing a stereotypical  head wag that is heavily associated with black women from US ghettoes. In fact, the whole reason it's an internet meme is because of the internet social more that "nothing is sacred"; it is therefore funny because it is transgressive.

Badbeast was showing off his irreverence by posting it in a thread about race which apparently he had decided wasn't funny, edgy, or badass enough.

I don't see how it's racist either. And to be perfectly honest, " transgressive context of taking a studio portrait of a black family and making it into a .gif in which all members of the family are doing a stereotypical  head wag that is heavily associated with black women from US ghettoes" means less than fuck all to me.
I posted it because I thought it was funny, not because*I* decided the thread wasn't edgy, or badass enough.
I can live with the fact Nigel doesn't think it was funny. But to blame me for "killing the thread?" That's not true.

Um, BadBeast....

Have you ever heard of "mansplaining"? Well, what you said above was a bit like that, except replace the topic of women with race.

Just pointing it out.

[navkat]

That's not what I intended at all. I guess I failed at articulating my point well.

The "typical black" stuff isn't a problem. Someone carrying themselves in such a way that suggests they're carrying a gun in their pants and aren't on the up and up is. Body language. Other factors that equate to common sense fight or flight judgements. NECESSARY jugements.

If the third black man in my scenario had a holster on a belted pair of those same baggy pants and the second dude, it still wouldn't be a problem. He's carrying himself like a man who's just going about his private life. Chances are, he is. Maybe he's an off duty guard or a bondsman. Maybe he's just a private citizen with a concealed carry permit. Doesn't matter. He's not loitering around, holding his gun, which is shoved into his underwear through the bunched-up fabric of his shirt and pants so it doesn't slip down or so it's obvious he's posturing that it's there. He's not leering at me like I'm a piece of meat and he's perfectly okay with people understanding that he sees me as one. He's not behaving in a manner which is socially percieved as "sketchy."

And you know what? If he did, I'm pretty sure 80-year-old black dude would see it the same way and suggest in his ramblings that I stay right there and not go wandering near the thugs until my bus comes.

It's not about color at all. And it's not simply about cultural stuff like clothing choices or whatever. It's about a big, fuzzy picture that comes into focus only after someone's given me a reason to sharpen the viewfinder.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There aren't just two Popeyes' in your neighborhood, they're on the same block, or nearly so. Which is probably a reflection of how Portland deals with race in a larger sense.

but don't worry, in another year or two one of them will probably be turned into a new high-end gourmet fried chicken joint by the guys who run Clarklewis.

And yeah, fuck Portlandia in the ass with a sharp stick. I mean, it's not even funny AT ALL, in addition to be racist by omission.

They should just rename it yuppielandia and be done with it.

I know... I could walk to either of them from here.  They damn well better not open some crappy overpriced bullshit "gourmet" fucking chicken place, I will BURN IT TO THE GROUND. What those asshole yuppies did to Mississippi St. is just about criminal; it's actually the first time I've ever been really pissed about gentrification. Fucking developers.

Did you see a New Seasons is opening on Williams where the old Hostess factory used to be? I'm of mixed feelings; the MLK corridor has been mostly really good about rejecting giant out-of-state corporate development, and it's nice that it's a local business, but the owners of New Seasons are douches.

[Phox]

But if you marginalize it too much, then people who are self-aware enough to understand that they are themselves prejudiced will be less willing to talk about it and more inclined to pretend that they "don't see race" or whatever.  If the penalty for being wrong is too high, people won't risk self improvement.

Given the option between "not seeing race" and "casually referring to Black people as niggers", which option is best?

Also, what would YOU suggest?

"Not seeing race" is itself a racist invention. Whenever I hear that, I know I'm talking to a white person who is playing ostrich. Why wouldn't you see race? Only because skin color raises issues that may be difficult and objectionable to think about. Otherwise, it's a lot like saying "I don't see gender" or "I don't see hair color" or "I don't see clothes".

Plus, it's a lie. It may be a self-deluded lie, and the person may really believe that they don't see race. But it's a lie nonetheless.

A lot of people won't get better.  Seriously.  They aren't capable of changing what they've been conditioned to be.

So which is better?  The arrogant lie of "I don't see race", or having them act the way they really think?

You can't usually change peoples' thoughts, but you CAN sometimes keep them from smearing their poop on innocent bystanders.

Honestly? I think that most of the people who claim not to see race (or who say that race makes no difference to them) are well-meaning people. They aren't stifling nasty racist thoughts; they are avoiding an unpleasant reality. They are, for the most part, choosing not to think about the reality of race. What I would prefer, honestly, is for people like this to consciously think about race, and the experiences of the people they share their existence with for whom race is something it is not possible to avoid being aware of. "Not-thinking" about race isn't the way to become comfortable with it any more than "not-thinking" about homosexuality is the way to become comfortable with it. Remember when it was OK to be gay, as long as you didn't ACT gay? Some people still feel that way.

Talking about some guy with pants around his ass and a sideways baseball cap... what is that? Navkat, I know you didn't mean it this way, but up there you basically said that you wouldn't be uncomfortable with a black guy talking to you as long as he didn't have the visible social marks of being "black" other than skin color. I think a lot of good, well-intentioned people do not understand how what they say translates. I think it's good and right and important to talk about it, because, just like you don't get better at swimming if you avoid the water, you do not get any more comfortable with people being different if you don't think about it.

That's not to say that people of color, for instance blacks, have not equally engaged in creating this false comfort zone of not-thinking. Blacks and other brown people have historically always tried to make their skin color as invisible as possible when they wanted to succeed in a white European dominated world... taking the "I'm not so different from you" approach. Gloria Bird and Joy Harjo talk about this a little in "Reinventing the Enemy's Language".

Nigel is one hundred percent dead on with this. Here's the thing: Most white people don't realize exactly how far non-whites go to make their skin color a non-issue. Take for instance the general difference in people's reactions when seeing an Arabic looking man in business casual or jeans and a T-shirt vs. the same man in traditional Saudi garb and a ghutrah. In the first instance, depending on where you are, you might assume that he's an American dude, out doing American stuff, but the second his clothes change he's Arabic, and Muslim, which was obvious before, but your preconceptions change. At my school, there are a fairly decent amount of Middle Eastern students, enough that I hear Arabic and Turkish around campus enough to pick out the difference between the two (though being a linguists no doubt helps), but I admit, I was some what surprised, at one point, when I saw a bunch of dudes hanging out wearing all decked out in their regalia because the Saudi Student Organization was having an event for Ramadan. It struck because they don't wear that sort of stuff often (the women almost universally wear hijab regularly, so that doesn't strike me as out of the ordinary). However, it occurred to me that at least part of the reason that they don't wear it often, is because it marks them as immediately Arabic/Muslim, at this school, there is a fair chance that in passing they might be taken as Indian to someone who doesn't know or can't tell the difference from the various clues, as there are number of Indian students as well. And let's face it, this isn't exactly the most tolerant area in the world, and I wasn't kidding about the prison called "Little Gitmo".

How many black people do you know who speak and act differently at work or school than when they are hanging out? How many black people do you know who feel comfortable being black around you? <= questions directed at no one in particular.

The point is, Nigel's exactly right when she says that "not seeing race" is the same thing as saying that someone is "culturally white". Because if you don't see race, it doesn't matter if they are wearing their pants around their ankles, wearing 90 pounds of gold chains, a diamond studded grill, and a sideways baseball cap. But you know what, that's bullshit. Because if the guy is white, you are going to make assumptions about him. Those assumptions will be strikingly different than if he is black.

[Kai]

In part directly relevant to this thread: http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2012/01/16/shuffling-feet-a-black-mans-view-on-schroedingers-rapist/