On Freedom of Speech, Rush and the Turkish viewpoint

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

oh, yea.  the impassioned killer, i can see that.

i was just thinking about the mugger.  i would guess they probably aren't motivated by passion.  as i said, i don't really have any evidence, but i've heard the argument dismissed before, and it doesn't seem entirely implausible to me.  (but the prerequisite does, so it doesn't really matter)

Or the drunk killer.

Or the mugger who just doesn't give a fuck.  Or the pimp who needs to make an object lesson of a low-earning prostitute.  Or the mafia/mob/etc guy who thinks someone's going to squeal if they think they're going to be convicted.    And the mafia is the perfect example of the banality of evil, the best evidence I can offer of which is Roy DeMeo and his crew.  Google it sometime, if you start feeling too happy about humanity.

Thrill killers are - despite Hollywood - incredibly rare...But people who simply don't care about killing are a little more common than people think, and are just as monstrous.

I wonder what percentage of shootings are done by the police?

It's surprisingly hard to find statistics on police shootings.

But if you ask loud enough, you can become a statistic.   

Good Lord, I've become a cynical bastard.

But maybe not cynical enough.

I'ma vote "not cynical enough".

[Doktor Howl]

oh, yea.  the impassioned killer, i can see that.

i was just thinking about the mugger.  i would guess they probably aren't motivated by passion.  as i said, i don't really have any evidence, but i've heard the argument dismissed before, and it doesn't seem entirely implausible to me.  (but the prerequisite does, so it doesn't really matter)

Or the drunk killer.

Or the mugger who just doesn't give a fuck.  Or the pimp who needs to make an object lesson of a low-earning prostitute.  Or the mafia/mob/etc guy who thinks someone's going to squeal if they think they're going to be convicted.    And the mafia is the perfect example of the banality of evil, the best evidence I can offer of which is Roy DeMeo and his crew.  Google it sometime, if you start feeling too happy about humanity.

Thrill killers are - despite Hollywood - incredibly rare...But people who simply don't care about killing are a little more common than people think, and are just as monstrous.

I wonder what percentage of shootings are done by the police?

It's surprisingly hard to find statistics on police shootings.

But if you ask loud enough, you can become a statistic.   

Good Lord, I've become a cynical bastard.

But maybe not cynical enough.

I'ma vote "not cynical enough".

In my experience most actual criminals are pretty dumb.  Likewise, most cops are either dumb, or they learn to act like they are.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

My mind is still boggling from the "It's not genocide because it wasn't premeditated" angle.

So it was a genocide of passion?

Dude, no, we didn't mean to... we just had too much to drink, everything went dark, and when we woke up we had a dry mouth, a raging headache, and half the Armenians were gone. It wasn't something we planned.

[Doktor Howl]

My mind is still boggling from the "It's not genocide because it wasn't premeditated" angle.

Pretty certain it was deliberate, planned, and executed as ruthlessly as possible.

Revisionist history is revisionist.

[Don Coyote]

One of the primary arguments from the anti-gun camp is the reduction of accidental deaths from people playing with guns who shouldn't, like children. It could also be argued that better gun control could reduce the risk of school shooting incidents. That wouldn't remove the problem of "crazy person wants to kill some dudes at random" but would reduce the kill-count at the end of the day.

I don't think anyone seriously believes removing guns would make a significant dent in homicide in general, it would just raise the barrier for entry a smidge.

You ever heard of dihydrogen monoxide? Every day, about ten people die from dihydrogen monoxide inhalation. Of these, two are children aged 14 or younger. dihydrogen monoxide inhalation is the sixth leading cause of unintentional injury death for people of all ages, and the second leading cause of death for children ages 1 to 14 years.

Wow.  You didn't really just quote Hannity, did you?

If I did it was unintentional.

I'd have just stuck with "small children drink bleach more often than they kill themselves with firearms."

My choice of example just retarded?
But yea, kids are more likely to drink household cleaners or drown than get shot. Just like people are more likely to die from the flu than from a shooting.

[East Coast Hustle]

One of the primary arguments from the anti-gun camp is the reduction of accidental deaths from people playing with guns who shouldn't, like children. It could also be argued that better gun control could reduce the risk of school shooting incidents. That wouldn't remove the problem of "crazy person wants to kill some dudes at random" but would reduce the kill-count at the end of the day.

I don't think anyone seriously believes removing guns would make a significant dent in homicide in general, it would just raise the barrier for entry a smidge.

You ever heard of dihydrogen monoxide? Every day, about ten people die from dihydrogen monoxide inhalation. Of these, two are children aged 14 or younger. dihydrogen monoxide inhalation is the sixth leading cause of unintentional injury death for people of all ages, and the second leading cause of death for children ages 1 to 14 years.

Wow.  You didn't really just quote Hannity, did you?

If I did it was unintentional.

I'd have just stuck with "small children drink bleach more often than they kill themselves with firearms."

Dihydrogen monoxide is more commonly known as water. As for the Hannity thing, well, just because he was the one who said it doesn't make it wrong. Stopped clocks and all that.

[East Coast Hustle]

Oh, and there's no such thing as a cynic anymore.

[Junkenstein]

Dihydrogen monoxide is more commonly known as water
[/quote]

That's either a really good joke or Science has changed since my day.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Dihydrogen monoxide is more commonly known as water

That's either a really good joke or Science has changed since my day.
[/quote]

How so? It's accurate. Two hydrogens, one oxygen.

[Junkenstein]

It appears Science has not changed, but I have had a stunning display of a lack of mental faculties.

I'd delete the post but it will serve as a lesson to google before showing yourself to be retarded.

Commence the mockery, for surely it is deserved.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

It appears Science has not changed, but I have had a stunning display of a lack of mental faculties.

I'd delete the post but it will serve as a lesson to google before showing yourself to be retarded.

Commence the mockery, for surely it is deserved.

Nah, it's a simple oversight.  It's designed to do that.

[Elder Iptuous]

i recall getting chain emails about the dihydrogen monoxide joke many moons ago.  I don't think Hannity gets credit for that one.

but for a more realistic comparison, i don't see similar impassioned pleas for strict regulation regarding automobiles when, iirc, about 35,000 people die a year from their misuse.

[Freeky]

One of the primary arguments from the anti-gun camp is the reduction of accidental deaths from people playing with guns who shouldn't, like children. It could also be argued that better gun control could reduce the risk of school shooting incidents. That wouldn't remove the problem of "crazy person wants to kill some dudes at random" but would reduce the kill-count at the end of the day.

I don't think anyone seriously believes removing guns would make a significant dent in homicide in general, it would just raise the barrier for entry a smidge.

You ever heard of dihydrogen monoxide? Every day, about ten people die from dihydrogen monoxide inhalation. Of these, two are children aged 14 or younger. dihydrogen monoxide inhalation is the sixth leading cause of unintentional injury death for people of all ages, and the second leading cause of death for children ages 1 to 14 years.

  You're a dick. 

[Salty]

It appears Science has not changed, but I have had a stunning display of a lack of mental faculties.

I'd delete the post but it will serve as a lesson to google before showing yourself to be retarded.

Commence the mockery, for surely it is deserved.

Ooookay! I think Ive got the most relevant ones in there. No one else will be able to give you shit now for fear of re-posting. You're all set.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I still want to know what happens if you call it "genocide" in public in Turkey.

Currently, nothing.... unless you say "Turks are a bunch of motherfucking sluts and committed genocide."

I couldn't live under that system.  For example, I think America is populated by a bunch of stupid fat nosy bastards who couldn't find their own state on a map if you circled it in red.  I enjoy saying things like that to other Americans, because I rather enjoy upsetting them.

Under the Turkish system, I would be forced to give up one of the great joys in my life, or go to jail, or both.

Oh you could totally say that to people... just not as part of public discourse. They basically see the freedom of speech to be important for whistleblowing, political disagreements etc... but demand that its done respectfully.

That being said, there are definitely some controls on Free Speech here that I find 'too far'. for example, if you stood on a street corner and preached that Attaturk was a *(&%$^)*^ and a *^$@$*) who )(%$*( every chance he got.... you would go to jail. Even if you said "Attaturk was a tool of a secret Illuminati conspiracy" you would probably go to jail.

Then again, from what I've seen, you might not go to jail as you might be in a hospital or hanging from a tree if Turks heard you insult Attaturk.

In the end, I think its a question of what the society expects of itself. Here, respect is expected... respect for elders, respect for public servants, respect for your fellow countrymen, etc. The language is loaded with respectful terms and even body language is seen as respectful or disrespectful in the culture (like if you're sitting with an older person and you cross your legs... many older turks would be offended, because its considered disrespectful).

In the States, as you point out, such is not the case.

So perhaps the interpretation of Free Speech is tied to the existing psychology of the society. For me, I had considered the US version the CORRECT version with no variation. Having seen the way it works here... I was surprised.


On the topic of the Armenians, based on what I've read, it appears that the Ottoman government was guilty of extreme incompetence and definately soldiers were guilty of war crimes. However, the state was in an absurd position of disarray following WW I. The Sultan and the Young Turks were split over almost everything and neither had a good handle on what was happening throughout their country.

On the East the Greeks had invaded from Izmir as part of a deal between the allied powers to divide and take over the Ottoman empire. As they were fighting back the Greeks, the Armenians in that region were helping the Greeks. The eventual burning of Izmir is still hotly debated, the Greeks believe it was attempted genocide, the Turks claim it was the Greeks that started the fire after they lost the city.

In the south, they were losing control of all of the arabic areas that they once held. In the north Russia invaded and the Armenians were, again, helping the invaders.

The chain of command was a pile of spaghetti. Half the army hated the empire. Attaturk was already convinced that he was going to overthrow the government and implement a western style government...

In short this place was chaos. Since there has never been evidence that genocide was an official policy or an attempt to kill all Armenians... and considering that the Armenians had several times in the past decades, revolted against the empire... and at the time were actively backing the invaders... 'genocide' seems like an incorrect word.

To wrap this back around to the actual point of the post, Pamuk (the guy who wrote the book about the Armenians and got kicked out of the country) didn't call it genocide either. The military (who had taken control of the government at the time) prosecuted him in an attempt to fuck over the chances of getting into the EU (at least thats what most Turks seem to believe). It was absolutely wrong and an abuse of their laws. Today, his books are being sold here again because the government realized that it was wrong.

All in all, I love freedom of speech... but seeing different implementations has exposed me to some other ideas of how freedom of speech can be implemented.