Author Topic: Any relevance for religion?  (Read 19762 times)

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20341
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #165 on: March 22, 2012, 01:27:27 pm »
Lmno- im not sure i fully understand the nonwestern concept of karma enough to comment on that. But you also describe blind reincarnation which means that you can see how such a concept can exist without gods.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62117
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #166 on: March 22, 2012, 01:29:00 pm »
Sure- people believe they can leave their bodies or experience past lives or whatever. I cant really say whats going on with that. The fact that it happens suggests some sort of experience is occuring in the brain. Trying to say what it is other than "this person is perceiving something odd" makes a belief out of it. I seem to be expressing myself poorly but im not really making any leaps here and ive stated before ('aybe not in this thread) that my belief in an afterlife is necessary for me not to get cripplingly depressed about my eventual death. I recognize that it may not be true but dwelling on that isnt good for me.

I think my point is that to even conceive of reincarnation implies an unfounded belief in a supernatural force that has an organizing principle which mimics base-level sentience of a sort.

AFK

  • We all
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 33482
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #167 on: March 22, 2012, 01:30:23 pm »
Well, technically and temporally speaking, there is an afterlife.  The open question is whether there is any kind of phantom, energy-packet, or some other kind of metaphysical-sentience that can experience it. 

I guess that's where belief structures come in.  Personally, I have no idea but am fairly content with the idea that whatever it is, I likely will not be in any kind of state that I will experience it.  I kinda figure, if anything, the energy that has been contained in my lifeform will just dissipate into the universe, and that this will happen and be unnoticed by anyone or anything else in the universe. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20341
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #168 on: March 22, 2012, 01:31:46 pm »
Ah- i think i see what youre getting at now. The organizing force to make that sort of thing happen can be thought of as sentience.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62117
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #169 on: March 22, 2012, 01:33:12 pm »
And it answers a Weird Shit question in a way that comforts you.  So, my definition stands (in my view, at least).

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20341
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #170 on: March 22, 2012, 01:35:41 pm »
Looks like im going to have to think of a better example unless the obe one still fits.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62117
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #171 on: March 22, 2012, 01:41:57 pm »
Regarding OBEs:

The unfounded belief they have is the interpretation of the experience, not the experience itself

"I experienced something typically called an Out of Body Experience" is much different than "my soul separated itself from my body, and I saw things from a different physical vantage point, even though the amorphous conciousness that floated outside of my body did not have anything resembling optic nerves."

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20341
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #172 on: March 22, 2012, 01:46:27 pm »
Which implies also some sort of external organizing force. Gotcha. Yep. Other examples it is then.
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Doktor Howl

  • Вся ваша база принадлежит нам
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 32873
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #173 on: March 22, 2012, 02:23:30 pm »
More succinctly- astral travel and other obe's, past life memories, etc. Like is said- i have an afterlife model which i consider independent from theology. I have no experiences to base that on but some do.

You know, if I said that they would be queuing round the block to rip me a new one. How do you manage to get away with it Twid? Is it that infamous Irish charm?  :wink:

Because he's speaking hypothetically, not stating that these things are really real magick.
"What were you expecting?  Violins?"
- Lieutenant Checkov

Q. G. Pennyworth

  • Slimy Thing Who
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 5871
  • QUEEN BITCH OF FLYERS
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #174 on: March 22, 2012, 05:09:32 pm »
You can believe that there is an experience you haven't had yet. Like I can believe there's such a thing as "climbing Mt. Everest" or "living forever on my own planet after death and ruling it as a God" or "being possessed" or even just "being reincarnated."

You don't need to believe anyone is pulling the strings to believe that something like that is possible.
Overheating Pheremone Pustule of Last Saturday's Jiggle Fun| _xgeWireToEvent: Unknown extension 131, this should never happen.

Don't fucking judge me, I've got tentacles for a face.

LMNO

  • Lubricated and Rabid Lungfish of Impending Sexdoom™
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 62117
  • Internet Fuckweasel of Haunted Pork Dimensions.
    • View Profile
    • Earfatigue Productions: When it has to sound like you give a shit.
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #175 on: March 22, 2012, 05:12:37 pm »
:requia:

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

  • Probably
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 11430
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #176 on: March 23, 2012, 08:59:39 am »
I think I see what Twid is saying...

He's saying we might believe an expeirence exists, without attributing a sentient force.

For example, Peter Carroll talks about reincarnation using the "Kia" Kia isn't a god, or a conscious force. It's a concept or maybe a metaphor. In this example, Carroll says the Kia exists as a 'singularity' (in this since vs a duality not the center of a black hole). The singularity "spins off bits of 'stuff' which manifest as human consciousness. Human consciousness exists as a duality, that is it can experience existence (good/bad, white/black, happy/sad) and at death the 'stuff is drawn back into the Kia, until it gets spun out again.

In a sense, it posits a model for reincarnation that wouldn't require a God or consciousness to arrange it, any more than the water cycle requires a consciousness to arrange it.

So its a belief in an experience.

I know Chaos Magic gets a lot of flack here, and I don't want to start that old fight again... but I do think its a good example of a system which attempts to divorce itself from the dogmatic beliefs of religion, while trying to fill the emotional and experiential human needs we've been discussing. Flawed? Sure... but it could be a start. After all, even the implementation of science was pretty flawed for the first few centuries.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

hirley0

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 3499
    • View Profile
    • TNM
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #177 on: March 23, 2012, 05:02:37 pm »
ido consider myself A part of the 10% {OBE
not that i have had many Out of Body experiences | only a few
the most memorable of them all WAS on the day i was BORN
01/26/1938 in dy/mo/yyyy format 
Do U REMember that day Hu?



"For most people, an unfounded belief in a somewhat sentient force beyond the mundane universe seems to be, if not necessary, at least perferred."

I would rephrase the italicized to "some entity, information, or experience", although I think I may be conflating "spirituality" with "religion" for purposes of this argument.

Nephew Twiddleton

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 20341
  • DEATH METAL ENGLISH
    • View Profile
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #178 on: March 23, 2012, 05:33:46 pm »
How are you able to remember the day you were born?
Steely-Eyed Replicant Frottage Master of Yesterday's Lost Glory
Sentence or sentence fragment pending[/size]

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

hirley0

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 3499
    • View Profile
    • TNM
Re: Any relevance for religion?
« Reply #179 on: March 24, 2012, 01:01:52 pm »
How are you able to remember the day you were born?


i've no idea /-/ow Human Memories work?
i can say this about that ?meMORy? tough . it was in color | White DOC Lab coat
WITH sound ? My first scream | /-/ hit me on the rump | &i let out a HOWeLL .
I was upside Down { suspended by my ankels | & took a hard hit .

about memory? My short tem memory these days is about gone
can't REMember from one instant to the next. if i put my keys / or glasses down
a 1/2 second later i have no idea wher to find them

some time the i have to search around 1/2 day just to find what happened 1/2
second ago | Very discussting | oh well moving on | Just a second
opic: |/ OBE  (Read 18 times) | i thought the might be 1 R OBE ? :fnord: