My Problem With Islam

[Junkenstein]

The 18-25 group concerns me, but I think we probably need a comparison to other religious/ethnic groups to get an idea of how severe the problem is. My reasoning is that there are several other pressures on this age range such as employment that historically tend to push people towards views they may not hold when times are good.

Progressive is a fuzzy word and I should clarify that. My experiences have been fairly broad. Some drink, some smoke, some do both. Many are open to casual/alternative relationships although Homosexuality has been a point of stigma among several. This leads me to think that education is key and faith schools(ANY faith) are probably a serious issue that needs addressing.

The nature of a faith school is that you will never really be taught in detail about other faiths, and certainly never put those on an equal footing to your own. A push for more of them will be worrying. How to tackle this without offending all faiths is a problem I've really got no idea how to address. I would imagine this would be an area where religions would unite to protect each other.

Mandatory teaching of Atheism and examples of prominent/historical atheists could help but I doubt it. This would probably end with  "and they're in hell now so remember to praise (deity)"

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I think that largely depends on local population. I went to a catholic school until i was 12 and even though i was young got the sense that it was fairly liberal and egalitarian with other beliefs. We had a few protestant and a rare jewish students and it was an open secret that our religious principal was also gay.

[Cain]

Gotcha. That makes a more sense for not america. It was a bit of a knee jerk feeling i admit.

Not to threadjack but uk allows you to get citizenship if you learn scots gaelic, welsh and or irish in lieu of english right? I know they did at one point and i think the idea is ridiculous even though i am an obvious proponent of preserving and expanding celtic languages.

No, I understand, I'm not entirely comfortable with the proposition either.

Not that I'm aware of, though my personal opinion is that they should be given a bonus point for effort.

[Cain]

The nature of a faith school is that you will never really be taught in detail about other faiths, and certainly never put those on an equal footing to your own. A push for more of them will be worrying. How to tackle this without offending all faiths is a problem I've really got no idea how to address. I would imagine this would be an area where religions would unite to protect each other.

Indeed, and it will only get worse as time goes by.  That's why ideally they should be scrapped as soon as possible.  Education is too important to be left to religious fundamentalists.  It's really too important to be left to government, but unfortunately it has to be left to someone, and at least the teachers seem to want to hold government somewhat accountable for what is being taught.

[Cain]

I think that largely depends on local population. I went to a catholic school until i was 12 and even though i was young got the sense that it was fairly liberal and egalitarian with other beliefs. We had a few protestant and a rare jewish students and it was an open secret that our religious principal was also gay.

Oh, indeed, it can be (also, gay principial at a Catholic school?  The jokes just write themselves).

However, those with most interest in teaching extreme views will want to use faith schools, as it allows students to be isolated from other views (faith schools do not have to admit anyone they do not want to, including staff, on religious grounds) and so the propaganda can be fed to them uncritically.

[navkat]

Dead on, Cain. It's frustrating. Your solution of pushing back hard with verbal dissent and social pressure is theoretically great for Britain. The problem here (and also rightly so) is that we have proven zero capacity for common sense, appropriate application or...uh...what's that stuff? Oh yeah, sanity.

In the way ideas are presented here, a lot of the subtle flavors are dumbed-down and shit tonnes of salt and sugar thrown in. It's created a perpetuation of the all-or-nothing polarized thinking that would make people miss the point entirely of saying "we can not allow these non-democratic ideas to fester freely." Democrats are programmed to see that statement as hypocrisy. Neocons are self-indulgent enough to believe that means we should stand the National Guard inside of Masjids.

@Junkenstein I sort of have to disagree with the younger = more progressive idea. At least here, it seems like the younger population of Islamic people (and I've been intimtely exposed to their society for several reasons) seem to have something to prove whereas the elders seem to be more at peace with the environment. Or, at least, if they aren't, they're keeping their mouths shut about subjects like public whippings and blurting out scary stuff like "They will suffer for ____, in sh'allah!" Yes, this happens. A lot. And if it's happening in front of me with only the women (I'm only allowed to socialize in the women's tent at their barbeques and events), I have to wonder what goes on among the men in private.

Don't get me wrong, they've been wonderful people to me--very gracious inviting me to their tables (or floors. Carpet picnic!) even inside the Masjid after sundown at Ramadan--but there are many things they are very comfortable saying in front of me that are cause for alarm and one of them happens to be that there is a clear agenda that is tailored for life in this country to which Muslim women are obligated to adhere. That includes:
1. Not wasting an opportunity to get a muslim man abroad a greencard through marriage.
2. Having and raising three children in Islam and teaching the virtues of sharia law.
3. Agreeing to settle all civil and domestic matters between each other through the Imam before trying other avenues.
4. Understanding that the point (regardless of beliefs about violent uprising or otherwise) is to turn the tide of political power through numbers and through manipulating our very own weak, flawed and "corrupt" values against us to do so.

You can not use descriminatory practices in granting legal status in this country.
You can not control reproductive practices or legislate forced eugenics.
You can not forbid anyone the right to home or pivately school their children in faith-based teaching...even if that teaching is to prime children to the "evils of democracy."

I suspect these US born women are but tools: mere hosts. I get the impession that the elders don't like or trust or respect them very much. US converts here in the south are STRONGLY advised to send the children to Muslim private school because they are not "high in their Imam" (whatever that means) and are "like children themselves."

I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot like the desired level of their contribution to the community is limited to the role of immigration and baby mill.

[navkat]

And I wrote that whole thing on a smartphone before the last 7 posts so if I repeated anything, oh well.

[Junkenstein]

Hi Navkat, the younger/progressive idea is pretty much just my perception. Given your experiences I'm quite open to this not being anywhere close to fact. I've mainly dealt with younger males so the female perspective is something i'm pretty ignorant on.

Your list of obligations is a little startling for a couple of reasons. Firstly in that i've had a few flyers from right wing organisations with some of them on in much more forceful language. Secondly in how self perpetuating, especially among women, that these ideas seem to be. Have you encountered any dissenting voices to them? How strong is this obligation? I've got a fair few questions along these kind of lines, I guess what i'm trying to get at is how open in general is the group you're dealing with open to change and new ways of thinking?

Jumping over to this

You can not forbid anyone the right to home or pivately school their children in faith-based teaching...even if that teaching is to prime children to the "evils of democracy."

Again, very limited knowledge here. While you can't deprive people of the right, surely there is some kind of check to make sure the teaching covers certain subjects and is of a minimum quality? I think I know the answer but I live in hope.

Finally this is concerning me

I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot like the desired level of their contribution to the community is limited to the role of immigration and baby mill.

That's a pretty damning statement. Are the women you talk to happy/comfortable with that level of contribution? I would guess not, but given the willingness to perpetuate the problem I really don't know.

Apologies for the somewhat inquisitorial nature of the post, I've just got far more questions than answers.

[East Coast Hustle]

Gotcha. That makes a more sense for not america. It was a bit of a knee jerk feeling i admit.

Not to threadjack but uk allows you to get citizenship if you learn scots gaelic, welsh and or irish in lieu of english right? I know they did at one point and i think the idea is ridiculous even though i am an obvious proponent of preserving and expanding celtic languages.

Actually (as in most civilized countries) they strip you of your citizenship if you learn Wwwyllllsccch.

[navkat]

@junkenstein

There was a thread in which I'd posted a link to a yt that was part of a documentary on a familiy who converted to islam here in the Mobile Bay area. The theme of the piece, I suspect, was intended to be one highlighting heartwarming ethnic diversity in the face of sociopolitical obstacles. What it did an inadvertent fine job of depicting was just how fannatical mainstream society is here about christianity and how, in absense of the christian fervor with which he was indoctrinated (due to feeling cast out for his own myriad reasons), this young man found Islam and has since found it to fill that void and has become as fannatical about it.

Disenfranchised and rebelious christians leaving that faith (possibly due to disillusionment and cognitive dissonance about the trend of hateful behavior on behalf of the religious right) seem prfect candidates to apply the same level of fannaticism to Islam. Seeing what they want to see and in spite of and blind to their own deeds and attitudes of hipocrisy, I think the mechanism is still "our god is the one true loving, peaceful god and we do his work, in sh'allah." The point being the same end: spreading his "word" and establishing his rule of law on earth (as it is in heaven).

How different is that, really from the neocons saying stupid shit like "it's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion" and unabashedly promoting legislation that has its justification in religion based logic? How many times have you heard the phrase "the framers based the constitution on Judeo-christian values?"

Changing hearts and minds through the multiply and be fruitful tenet doesn't sound so weird in that context anymore, does it?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Gotcha. That makes a more sense for not america. It was a bit of a knee jerk feeling i admit.

Not to threadjack but uk allows you to get citizenship if you learn scots gaelic, welsh and or irish in lieu of english right? I know they did at one point and i think the idea is ridiculous even though i am an obvious proponent of preserving and expanding celtic languages.

Actually (as in most civilized countries) they strip you of your citizenship if you learn Wwwyllllsccch.

It's spelled "Cymraeg", duh.

[East Coast Hustle]

[Placid Dingo]

The nature of a faith school is that you will never really be taught in detail about other faiths, and certainly never put those on an equal footing to your own. A push for more of them will be worrying. How to tackle this without offending all faiths is a problem I've really got no idea how to address. I would imagine this would be an area where religions would unite to protect each other.

Indeed, and it will only get worse as time goes by.  That's why ideally they should be scrapped as soon as possible.  Education is too important to be left to religious fundamentalists.  It's really too important to be left to government, but unfortunately it has to be left to someone, and at least the teachers seem to want to hold government somewhat accountable for what is being taught.

Wouldn't the ideal way to ensure this to be mainly a focus on quality, pay and conditions in government schools.

In Aus at least if you scrapped faith schools the whole government system would collapse with the influx.

[navkat]

You really can't lure zealots hell bent on religious indoctrinization into public schools by promising an olympic-sized swimming pool on the roof.

[Placid Dingo]

You really can't lure zealots hell bent on religious indoctrinization into public schools by promising an olympic-sized swimming pool on the roof.

I think though most parents just want the best schools.

Make government education as competitive as possible on that line. Also, I should imagine there are limits on what can be taught in a non-government school.