So Elizabeth Warren...

[East Coast Hustle]

...is a confirmed Cherohonkee.


I hate to say "I told you so", but....nah, actually I love to say "I told you so".

[Nephew Twiddleton]

"I'm not Native American, but I play one on teevee."

I never understood the need for some people to identify with scant traces of indigenous blood, real or imagined.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Not just identifying. Trading on it.

"BUY MAH BOOK! IT'S GOT CHEROKEE POW WOW RECIPES! LIKE JELLO WITH CANNED FRUIT!!!!!!!"

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

In my case, it's very easy to get swept up in the BOSTONIRISHWHOCARESABOUTTHERESTOFYOURDNA thing, and one of the few things keeping me connected with my dad's ethnicity is the fact that like all the other french canadian families, we know there's a tiny sliver of native american in there somewhere. It changes the way I look at my ancestors: instead of a monolithic group of bland, white people who moved to the frozen north from somewhere in Europe, I see some star-crossed lovers from different worlds finding a way to live together against all the odds. And yeah, it probably didn't exactly go that way, but it changes it from statistics to a story, which is a lot of what keeps people connected to their family history past the generations they got to meet.

There's also the fact that white guilt is a common affliction among liberals, and having a genetic tie to a group that was persecuted makes them feel a little better about being born into privilege.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The interesting thing is that, probably similarly to how Boston Irish know generations of their ancestry, and have the stories of how who met who and what their lives were like, it's fairly deeply ingrained in NA people to know generations of their ancestors. This gets really important when it's time to go up in front of a tribal board for scholarships, etc.

I've been drilled since I was pretty young on who exactly my ancestors are, where they came from, what their relationships were like, how they met, etc etc.

I feel sorry for people who "just found out" about Native ancestry and want to learn more about it. Sometimes that's possible, by finding a branch of the family who hasn't lost their family line knowledge, but there is so much stigma against it, and suspicion of plastic indians, that it's really difficult for these people to come from outside and ever take their place in the tribal community. It's difficult enough for someone like me, mixed-race and urban, but at least raised in the community with a father who is well-known and active in the urban indian league.

The hierarchy for who is "really an indian" is kind of fucked up. It was designed that way by the BIA. The BIA doesn't WANT people rediscovering their native roots and joining tribes. They don't even want the existing tribes to survive, let alone grow.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Whats the reasoning behind that? No more tribes no more bia right? It seems counterproductive to job security.

[Cain]

BIA's a bureaucratic black hole.  No-one's ever advanced far into the deepest reaches of Washington DC because of their work on Indian issues.

Furthermore, Indian territory is sovereign, right?  Their own laws, own police forces, taxation systems etc.  No state is keen on having zones outside of its control in its legal territory, and the few benefits that might arise from such an arrangement (ie tax havens, illegal weapons testing) are readily provided by the global marketplace nowadays.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

The BIA is basically an organization designed to preserve an endangered species, they have no interest in seeing them get past the endangered stage. (Also what Cain said).

My ex and I both come from french canadian families that are loosely aware of the native american blood that got mixed in, but only loosely. In his case, they at least know the tribe for certain, my folks can only assume based on geography. It's kinda depressing, because it's easy to go and reconnect with the irish family heritage even with generations of downtime, and no one questions you for it no matter how slim the percentage is.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The BIA is basically an organization designed to preserve an endangered species, they have no interest in seeing them get past the endangered stage. (Also what Cain said).

My ex and I both come from french canadian families that are loosely aware of the native american blood that got mixed in, but only loosely. In his case, they at least know the tribe for certain, my folks can only assume based on geography. It's kinda depressing, because it's easy to go and reconnect with the irish family heritage even with generations of downtime, and no one questions you for it no matter how slim the percentage is.

The BIA was originally created with the mission of ending  the "indian problem" through programs of assimilation and termination. It was NOT created with the mission of "preserving" an endangered species, it was created with the mission of eliminating one. The blood quantum laws directly reflect that end-goal.

It has evolved quite a bit over the years, but because blood quantum, as measured by the BIA, is still used to determine the federal government's level of fiscal responsibility toward a tribe member, and the BQ laws are designed to minimize tribal eligibility through attrition.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Inbreed yourselves to death or lose your identity, basically?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Inbreed yourselves to death or lose your identity, basically?

Yep. Among populations with incest taboos so strong that people were often not allowed to marry within their own clan or village. That's one of the main functions of the modern pow-wow, incidentally; they're basically a hook-up fest where people can meet eligible singles they aren't related to.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Furthermore, Indian territory is sovereign, right?  Their own laws, own police forces, taxation systems etc.  No state is keen on having zones outside of its control in its legal territory, and the few benefits that might arise from such an arrangement (ie tax havens, illegal weapons testing) are readily provided by the global marketplace nowadays.

It varies from tribe to tribe. I believe there are only a small handful (3, maybe 4) quasi-sovereign territories. Even those territories fall, ultimately, under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government though it is by treaty rather than statute (insofar as you can call an agreement between two sovereigns that includes the right of unilateral amendment, a "treaty"). There was a time where many tribes were still allowed to deal with other states directly. That's far from the case now, though many have the ability to negotiate their own trade in ways that the 50 states cannot.

The overwhelming majority of tribes with territory (not all of them have territory still) are forced to cede some level of taxation and often even policing jurisdiction to their adjacent state or county subdivisions, with states generally wanting to grab more whenever there's a buck in it or some political points to be made by cracking down on immoral savages. Litigation in these matters is often atrocious. It's not uncommon to see treaty terms, constitutional law and statute (state and federal) all thrown in together to arrive at a decision. It's a smorgasbord of bullshit.

One ongoing dispute I can think of concerns Indian Gaming. U.S. Congress decides that Indian Gaming concerns need to "work with" their adjacent state governments when opening Casino's. "Work with" because saying "submit to" would be a violation of standing treaty. States then drag their feet in working out the terms of new casinos, effectively blocking them. There is no civilian recourse because the Gaming Concern is not, in this matter, under the state's jurisdiction--common law doesn't apply. So logically, the tribal government brings suit for breach of contract, under "treaty-ish" law. But then the states come back and say there is no right to sue due to sovereign immunity under common law. I'm probably hitting the details of that particular case a little fuzzily, but it illustrates the gist of the thing.

The legal sovereignty has been pretty much whittled away to irrelevance. I've gotta put the ongoing efforts to extinct the Indian nations on good old fashioned institutional racism and cultural hegemony. It's been going on so long at this point, it probably just looks like bureaucracy to it's chief practicioners.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Furthermore, Indian territory is sovereign, right?  Their own laws, own police forces, taxation systems etc.  No state is keen on having zones outside of its control in its legal territory, and the few benefits that might arise from such an arrangement (ie tax havens, illegal weapons testing) are readily provided by the global marketplace nowadays.

It varies from tribe to tribe. I believe there are only a small handful (3, maybe 4) quasi-sovereign territories. Even those territories fall, ultimately, under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government though it is by treaty rather than statute (insofar as you can call an agreement between two sovereigns that includes the right of unilateral amendment, a "treaty"). There was a time where many tribes were still allowed to deal with other states directly. That's far from the case now, though many have the ability to negotiate their own trade in ways that the 50 states cannot.

The overwhelming majority of tribes with territory (not all of them have territory still) are forced to cede some level of taxation and often even policing jurisdiction to their adjacent state or county subdivisions, with states generally wanting to grab more whenever there's a buck in it or some political points to be made by cracking down on immoral savages. Litigation in these matters is often atrocious. It's not uncommon to see treaty terms, constitutional law and statute (state and federal) all thrown in together to arrive at a decision. It's a smorgasbord of bullshit.

One ongoing dispute I can think of concerns Indian Gaming. U.S. Congress decides that Indian Gaming concerns need to "work with" their adjacent state governments when opening Casino's. "Work with" because saying "submit to" would be a violation of standing treaty. States then drag their feet in working out the terms of new casinos, effectively blocking them. There is no civilian recourse because the Gaming Concern is not, in this matter, under the state's jurisdiction--common law doesn't apply. So logically, the tribal government brings suit for breach of contract, under "treaty-ish" law. But then the states come back and say there is no right to sue due to sovereign immunity under common law. I'm probably hitting the details of that particular case a little fuzzily, but it illustrates the gist of the thing.

The legal sovereignty has been pretty much whittled away to irrelevance. I've gotta put the ongoing efforts to extinct the Indian nations on good old fashioned institutional racism and cultural hegemony. It's been going on so long at this point, it probably just looks like bureaucracy to it's chief practicioners.

It does not really vary from tribe to tribe, legally speaking... not if they are Federally recognized. Indigenous sovereignty is complicated, and in numerous lawsuits between tribe and state, it has been upheld, meaning that states do not have the right to impose laws upon the tribes boundaried by those states, but that rather, tribes deal directly with the Federal government and come to treaty agreements. Legally speaking, indian nations are sovereign.

Sort of like how Trayvon Martin was a sovereign individual.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I think i have a bit of cognitive dissonance here. I consider myself separate from irish americans. If your one eighth irish your not really irish but for indiginous americans... There is stuff on the line there and it is survival. It might be simultaneously the galway and the boston talking. Will have to consider this.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Inbreed yourselves to death or lose your identity, basically?

Yep. Among populations with incest taboos so strong that people were often not allowed to marry within their own clan or village. That's one of the main functions of the modern pow-wow, incidentally; they're basically a hook-up fest where people can meet eligible singles they aren't related to.

I'm pretty sure that the way it's set up, mixing with somebody from a different nation reduces a resulting childs blood quantum. There's people who are full blood NA or close to it (say a mix like Ojibway, Lakota and Navajo) who can't get on tribal rolls. I've also heard of weird rules in some cases like having to be born on the rez or even have both parents born on the rez, things like that. And a lot of kids get yanked and adopted out to white families and never can get any kind of tribal status back. It's called "paper genocide"...making people disappear on paper.