Robert Bly - The Mythopoetic Men's Movement

[E.O.T.]

UNIFORMS

          are hot

ROBERT BLY

          is not

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I meant service in some form, not necessarily guns and boots... but some service could easily act as a 'ritual' taking a person from youth to adult. I detest the idea of compulsory service, but in many countries it does seem to have a good effect.

I am completely against any form of mandatory service, military or no, on account of "leave me the fuck alone".

When you say American Myths, what are you referring to?
[/quote]

The American Dream™.
Work hard, get rich.
My party is the party of fiscal responsibility.
We need to get tough on crime.
The 1950s were a golden age that we should try to recapture.
We're always saving the world from itself.
If I don't step out of line, nothing bad will happen to me.
Cops don't arrest innocent people.

Shall I go on?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I meant service in some form, not necessarily guns and boots... but some service could easily act as a 'ritual' taking a person from youth to adult. I detest the idea of compulsory service, but in many countries it does seem to have a good effect.

I am completely against any form of mandatory service, military or no, on account of "leave me the fuck alone".

When you say American Myths, what are you referring to?

The American Dream™.
Work hard, get rich.
My party is the party of fiscal responsibility.
We need to get tough on crime.
The 1950s were a golden age that we should try to recapture.
We're always saving the world from itself.
If I don't step out of line, nothing bad will happen to me.
Cops don't arrest innocent people.

Shall I go on?
[/quote]

Ah ah... that's a different sort of myth than I was referencing. I meant mythic stories (ala Joseph Campbell) that provide a model for people as they grow in their own experience of life. Many traditional societies had Hero stories, about some guy that is the everyman/fool/child who goes on a life changing experience, becoming the hero. In each individuals life, they take that same path, from the birth/child/fool position through taking the adventure that leads to being a grown/contributing member of society.

There are some stories that sorta cover this, Star Wars, obviously and also Avatar The Last Airbender as a more recent example... but these stories aren't a society wide tool, they're attempts by modern storytellers to recapture the old mythic concept. They still cling to the most classic model and don't really cover the modern cultural experience well enough IMO.

[Epimetheus]

I would certainly welcome a re-realization of the sense of the Epic in people's lives. I don't think this necessarily needs rituals, but I don't see the problem with using rituals to instill/generate it.

[kiss my axe]

I would certainly welcome a re-realization of the sense of the Epic in people's lives. I don't think this necessarily needs rituals, but I don't see the problem with using rituals to instill/generate it.

There's still a few. The military, like Dok mentioned. Or the less-acceptable getting rolled into a gang, like I mentioned.
In a lesser sense, becoming self-supporting and getting your own place.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Ah ah... that's a different sort of myth than I was referencing. I meant mythic stories (ala Joseph Campbell) that provide a model for people as they grow in their own experience of life. Many traditional societies had Hero stories, about some guy that is the everyman/fool/child who goes on a life changing experience, becoming the hero. In each individuals life, they take that same path, from the birth/child/fool position through taking the adventure that leads to being a grown/contributing member of society.

The myths I listed fit that description (see: Horatio Alger)

There are some stories that sorta cover this, Star Wars, obviously and also Avatar The Last Airbender as a more recent example... but these stories aren't a society wide tool, they're attempts by modern storytellers to recapture the old mythic concept. They still cling to the most classic model and don't really cover the modern cultural experience well enough IMO.

Balls.  The American myth cycle is based originally on the Astors and the Morgans.  It is the get rich myth, and it has existed longer in America than America has (politically) existed.  The streets are paved with gold, eh?  This is an incredibly enduring mythology, and has actually gotten far stronger as time goes on.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I would certainly welcome a re-realization of the sense of the Epic in people's lives. I don't think this necessarily needs rituals, but I don't see the problem with using rituals to instill/generate it.

You can't force the sense of epic, or you have current American television/movie rot.

It doesn't fucking work.  You have either "Audy Murphy" or "Buzz Aldrin", or you have crap like "the last airbender" and various Michael Bay flicks.  Hell, even Rambo was more comedy relief than anything else.

[kiss my axe]

Ah ah... that's a different sort of myth than I was referencing. I meant mythic stories (ala Joseph Campbell) that provide a model for people as they grow in their own experience of life. Many traditional societies had Hero stories, about some guy that is the everyman/fool/child who goes on a life changing experience, becoming the hero. In each individuals life, they take that same path, from the birth/child/fool position through taking the adventure that leads to being a grown/contributing member of society.

The myths I listed fit that description (see: Horatio Alger)

There are some stories that sorta cover this, Star Wars, obviously and also Avatar The Last Airbender as a more recent example... but these stories aren't a society wide tool, they're attempts by modern storytellers to recapture the old mythic concept. They still cling to the most classic model and don't really cover the modern cultural experience well enough IMO.

Balls.  The American myth cycle is based originally on the Astors and the Morgans.  It is the get rich myth, and it has existed longer in America than America has (politically) existed.  The streets are paved with gold, eh?  This is an incredibly enduring mythology, and has actually gotten far stronger as time goes on.

This goes a long way towards explaining why people get all pious and reverent over Steve Jobs. 

[Epimetheus]

I would certainly welcome a re-realization of the sense of the Epic in people's lives. I don't think this necessarily needs rituals, but I don't see the problem with using rituals to instill/generate it.

You can't force the sense of epic, or you have current American television/movie rot.

It doesn't fucking work.  You have either "Audy Murphy" or "Buzz Aldrin", or you have crap like "the last airbender" and various Michael Bay flicks.  Hell, even Rambo was more comedy relief than anything else.

I see what you're saying. I guess I was thinking more of activities coming FROM a sense of Epic, which help to sustain that sense of Epic. In other words, activites generated by individuals as part of the creative process of their lives, not by some kind of cultural authority or outside influence (which I agree would be fucked up).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I would certainly welcome a re-realization of the sense of the Epic in people's lives. I don't think this necessarily needs rituals, but I don't see the problem with using rituals to instill/generate it.

You can't force the sense of epic, or you have current American television/movie rot.

It doesn't fucking work.  You have either "Audy Murphy" or "Buzz Aldrin", or you have crap like "the last airbender" and various Michael Bay flicks.  Hell, even Rambo was more comedy relief than anything else.

I see what you're saying. I guess I was thinking more of activities coming FROM a sense of Epic, which help to sustain that sense of Epic. In other words, activites generated by individuals as part of the creative process of their lives, not by some kind of cultural authority or outside influence (which I agree would be fucked up).

Also, you're shooting too high, for the general population.  Most people - Hell, almost all people - have no epic in them.  That's what makes epic people epic, right?  The bulk of humanity's job is to stand on the curb and clap when the epic people go by.  For every hero, there's 100,000 people that just want to get through their lives.

[Epimetheus]

Depressing, but probably true. Epic is worth trying to encourage in everyone, but in terms of the people who actually live it, you're right.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Depressing, but probably true. Epic is worth trying to encourage in everyone,

Yes.  But don't expect too many results, as you say.

[Bu☆ns]

One thing that stands out in my mind is how rights of passages like the military and gangs seem to be rooted in aggression and violence.  That's not to say that having a good sense of strength and responsibility that comes with these groups...(maybe not so much responsibility with the later...) isn't a necessary quality that comes with manhood.  I just wonder if using that model is really what men need.  I'm really not sure--it's just that something kind of seems off with that.

[Epimetheus]

Wait, actually TGRR, there's a little bit of a miscommunication here. I'm not talking about heroes, I'm talking about an approach to living/a kind of experience.
Even "just getting through your life" can be epic, with the right lenses. And I don't think that's a delusion.
Of course, once a person sees the epic, the chances that they'll continue to be a submissive clone are slim to none.

[Don Coyote]

One thing that stands out in my mind is how rights of passages like the military and gangs seem to be rooted in aggression and violence.  That's not to say that having a good sense of strength and responsibility that comes with these groups...(maybe not so much responsibility with the later...) isn't a necessary quality that comes with manhood.  I just wonder if using that model is really what men need.  I'm really not sure--it's just that something kind of seems off with that.

Eh, most of the rights of passage in the military that I have experienced are not rooted in violence. In fact the only one that was rooted in violence was the final day of combative training.