Governor Walker of Wisconsin survived his recall election.

[Disco Pickle]

Disco, what the Hell are you talking about?

The Walker-backed bill proposed taking away the ability of public sector unions to bargain collectively over pensions and health care and limiting pay raises of public employees to the rate of inflation, as well as ending automatic union dues collection by the state and requiring public unions to recertify annually.[29][30] The bargaining changes exempted the unions of public safety officers, including police, firefighters, and state troopers.

"Public sector unions." Not "Just the teachers union". Also, "collective bargaining rights over pension, health care, and raises", not "make sure they can't do something stupid about Viagra."

And incidentally, if union members thought the unions were being stupid, THEY COULD ELECT NEW REPRESENTATIVES.

All public sector.  I missed that.  Hadn't picked that up in the readings.  Every one seems to be focusing on the teachers unions.  (ETA: which is, incidentally, what Glittersnatch said, that they've been convinced it's the fault of teachers unions, and so I did focus my attention on that.  I left out a big part, sorry about that.)

Pensions, healthcare and automatic raises are causing the deficits.  Clearly, raising taxes could help offset the deficits created over decades, but union membership has been on the decline in Wisconsin since the early 90's and probably before, while wages are driven up automatically, as are pension and healthcare costs, with fewer union members to contribute to the inflated costs. 

Do you have an idea to help mitigate the falling input that, at the rate of decline in contributing membership, will never meet the outgoing expenses they are demanding?

And the union members are unlikely to elect new leadership membership as long as the leadership is trying to get them more benefits.  They're humans, after all.

[Freeky]

Oh, Dipshit Pickle.  Do you ever learn?

Nope.  It's cuz you gots Religion.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Oh, Dipshit Pickle.  Do you ever learn?

Nope.  It's cuz you gots Religion Calvinizm.

He's one of Teh Eleckt. 

[Freeky]

Oh, Dipshit Pickle.  Do you ever learn?

Nope.  It's cuz you gots Religion Calvinizm.

He's one of Teh Eleckt. 

No, not calvinism.  He's got a baaad case of Libertard. 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Oh, Dipshit Pickle.  Do you ever learn?

Nope.  It's cuz you gots Religion Calvinizm.

He's one of Teh Eleckt. 

No, not calvinism.  He's got a baaad case of Libertard.

Ugh. Worse than I thought. 

[Luna]

http://www.uppitywis.org/blogarticle/university-minnesota-scientist-drops-bombshell-about-walker-says?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UppityWisconsin+%28Uppity+Wisconsin+-+Progressive+News+From+The+Ch



That, there, is the t'ing about politics.  Your entire history comes out to bite you in the ass...

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

A side lesson learned is that once again, protesting -- even loud, media-grabbing, borderline violent protesting -- will not do anything of any major importance, so you may as well not even try.

Right, getting the recall election in the first place was not important, they may as well have not even tried...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

A side lesson learned is that once again, protesting -- even loud, media-grabbing, borderline violent protesting -- will not do anything of any major importance, so you may as well not even try.

Right, getting the recall election in the first place was not important, they may as well have not even tried...

Actually, they probably shouldn't have.  Walker could shit on the podium and get reelected now.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

So if unions spend money on something people consider frivolous, it does not effect all unions legitimacy.

If protests spend time on something people consider frivolous, it effects all protests legitimacy.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So if unions spend money on something people consider frivolous, it does not effect all unions legitimacy.

If protests spend time on something people consider frivolous, it effects all protests legitimacy.

I'm not saying that...But let me just ask you this:  What HAS protesting accomplished in the last generation?

[Disco Pickle]

Oh, Dipshit Pickle.  Do you ever learn?

Nope.  It's cuz you gots Religion Calvinizm.

He's one of Teh Eleckt. 

No, not calvinism.  He's got a baaad case of Libertard.

Ugh. Worse than I thought. 

Aaaand your failure to contribute anything of value to a thread in AI is right around .975, you and the parrot below you. (no, I didn't do the damn math..  that's just silly on a forum that likes to embellish and talk in absolutes anyway)

I should be fair and say that I actually do like your contributions Freeky, when you can be bothered to, and not just repeat the same damn thing you always say to me in any thread I post in.   And you're a reasonable conversationalist, IMO, when you're inclined.

Anna I completely ignore.  She won't even start a thread unless she knows it will get a bunch of "HELL YEAH YOU'RE RIGHT" righteous indignation to help affirm her world view.

Srsly, do a count of the threads she's started and note their content. 

Back to the topic, if anyone cares to continue:

I did find an interesting piece in the NYTimes (I won't quote it here, don't want to get the board in trouble):

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/business/11pension.html?pagewanted=all

About a 1/3rd of the way down, independent analysts have found that collective bargaining isn't the at the core of the problem they thought they'd find.  NY state actually pays out more than 100% of a retirees working pay (because they pay out Social Security as well, something Wisconsin doesn't)

Also, these funds are heavily invested in and in fact banking their ability to pay on bull markets, pretty much all of the time.  We've been very clearly in a bear for some years, and more will come with more frequency.  (It's no small bit of irony that the same people who decry wall street stock gains have their union retirement funds invested in wall street stocks, and who's survival completely depends on the profits made on wall street, but that's my little aside jab and can be fodder for another thread)

A little further down, his research points to ultra low interest rates as being a severe problem in considering a payout of 58% of a public sector workers pay (artificially low interest rates and the real associated problems are something I've definitely talked about on this board, being a dumb ass dick pickle who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about, that's what we talk about)

Another finding was that public sector employees are allowed to retire earlier than private sector and receive a pension that's guaranteed.  In the case of Wisconsin, at 57 with full pension as long as they have 30 years.  (Police and Fire can retire at 53 with only 25 years...  I noted what you said about them LMNO, and I agree.)

Private sector employees do not have anything even resembling this anymore. 

The last two paragraphs basically sum up the problem.

I'll do some more reading but on the surface I can, in confidence, agree that stripping the bargaining rights for those benefits will not solve the problem in the long run, and just plays on people on both side's general ignorance about why these things cost so much.

[Disco Pickle]

So if unions spend money on something people consider frivolous, it does not effect all unions legitimacy.

If protests spend time on something people consider frivolous, it effects all protests legitimacy.

I was distracted and should have replied to that point by LMNO.

Protests serve a purpose, even if they do not accomplish their goals the first time.  They help bring awareness to people who might not have otherwise gotten a signal through all of the noise.

Little ripples and such.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Aaaand your failure to contribute anything of value to a thread in AI is right around .975, you and the parrot below you. (no, I didn't do the damn math..  that's just silly on a forum that likes to embellish and talk in absolutes anyway)

It's not THAT, DP, so much as the fact that you demonstrated what kind of person you are, a while back, and that nobody's really invested in spending much effort talking to...Well, a monster.  Not a scary monster.  Just a monster.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

So if unions spend money on something people consider frivolous, it does not effect all unions legitimacy.

If protests spend time on something people consider frivolous, it effects all protests legitimacy.

I'm not saying that...But let me just ask you this:  What HAS protesting accomplished in the last generation?

Besides getting many massive corporations to drop out of ALEC, put wealth inequality in the national consciousness, temporarily stopped SOPA, made "capitalism" a dirty word, caused an exodus from major banks and influx into credit unions, saved a significant number of people's houses from being foreclosed, not much I suppose.

[Disco Pickle]

Aaaand your failure to contribute anything of value to a thread in AI is right around .975, you and the parrot below you. (no, I didn't do the damn math..  that's just silly on a forum that likes to embellish and talk in absolutes anyway)

It's not THAT, DP, so much as the fact that you demonstrated what kind of person you are, a while back, and that nobody's really invested in spending much effort talking to...Well, a monster.  Not a scary monster.  Just a monster.

Because people can't step back, evaluate, and make course corrections in the way they interact with the world and the people in it, especially when it's a group of people they respect but disagree with on some things. 

Granted, most people don't, at least in my experience.

Why do you bother then if I'm such a monster? 

I didn't want a tangent on this thread, BTW.  I was hoping to argue merits.  Clearly I'm too monstrous for that.