Why has Feminism become a Dirty Word? and Other Misogyny on the Internet.

[Juana]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That, said much better than I did.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Wow, this thread moved some while I was sleeping, and Garbo and Nigel have left me with nothing to answer!

I hereby dub thee both PeeDee's Femininjas.

[Placid Dingo]

Ok hopefully Nigel's post said what I was trying to say. I'm not interested in a my life is harder than yours competition (I'd lose, I think my worst problem is oops I forgot to shop and it's Sunday). I was just wanting to look at the ways feminism can cover both male and female issues.

Also I realise I worded my previosu post like only men are threatened by violence for being openly gay. I don't think that. I meant to say that in towns like mine I think there would be worse backlash for a man being openly gay than a woman, or at least a lesser threat of violence. Though that could be inaccurate.

I still think the idea that men liking lesbian porn is about entranced sexist loathing and subconscious anti-homosexual prejudice as opposed to 'omg boobs and pussy' is fucking stupid.

[Don Coyote]

I like boobs. I like vaginas. Lesbian porn has that in abundance. By the way I like lesbian porn.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

I like boobs. I like vaginas. Lesbian porn has that in abundance. By the way I like lesbian porn.

I don't like lesbian porn made for a straight audience. I'm not keen on fake tits and long fingernails (owch!)

But then again I don't watch porn because of the negative impact on pornstar's lives, like addiction and basically burning out.

If I could find the Unicorn of Non-Exploitative Porn, I'd stop fapping to Literotica.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Wow, this thread moved some while I was sleeping, and Garbo and Nigel have left me with nothing to answer!

I hereby dub thee both PeeDee's Femininjas.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I like boobs. I like vaginas. Lesbian porn has that in abundance. By the way I like lesbian porn.

I don't like lesbian porn made for a straight audience. I'm not keen on fake tits and long fingernails (owch!)

But then again I don't watch porn because of the negative impact on pornstar's lives, like addiction and basically burning out.

If I could find the Unicorn of Non-Exploitative Porn, I'd stop fapping to Literotica.

My own personal porn unicorn of late has been amateur masturbation videos on Youporn. There's definitely no exploitation going on there; these guys just get off on showing off.

[EK WAFFLR]

(snagged from Facebook)

[Golden Applesauce]

I think you need to be more critical in your analysis. There are a number of professions which are heavily female-dominated, largely for reasons pertaining to gender-role differentiation. It might not surprise you to find that most nannies are female. However, that has mostly to do with the fact that for many years, these were the only professions that were open to women, and in fact, males wishing to enter these professions faced a stigma (also highly unfair, and a fantastic example of how restricting women's endeavors also oppresses men). Even so, sadly, on average males earn more in these female-dominated jobs than females do, when averaged for experience and skill.

I agree with everything you said, including that the historical reason for this is the oppression of women - Garbo just asked for an example of a situation where men faced a stigma that women did not. (And as she pointed out, this specific scenario is not at all representative of women in the workforce.)

[Juana]

The INF tumblr is fucking amazing, Waffles. There are some crappy submissions, but a lot of them are really excellent. That one's a good summary of rape culture. Thanks for bringing it up!

I still think the idea that men liking lesbian porn is about entranced sexist loathing and subconscious anti-homosexual prejudice as opposed to 'omg boobs and pussy' is fucking stupid.

Oh no, I get that. I'm kind of a fan of gay porn myself (of both kinds, although I really do not like actual video porn (though regular dude-on-dude porn is less like that FMO - I think they know they have a wider audience than just gay men and take that into account). The leering that seems to be universal amongst the ladies in commercial/semi-amateur is a serious turn off for me and I find it creepy. And I generally read my smut anyway).
But OTHO, a lot of lesbian porn (though this is particularly common for porn intended for male audiences, as Pix said) is kind of exploitative and suffers the same reason I dislike commercial and semi-amateur porn.

Wow, this thread moved some while I was sleeping, and Garbo and Nigel have left me with nothing to answer!

I hereby dub thee both PeeDee's Femininjas.

I think you need to be more critical in your analysis. There are a number of professions which are heavily female-dominated, largely for reasons pertaining to gender-role differentiation. It might not surprise you to find that most nannies are female. However, that has mostly to do with the fact that for many years, these were the only professions that were open to women, and in fact, males wishing to enter these professions faced a stigma (also highly unfair, and a fantastic example of how restricting women's endeavors also oppresses men). Even so, sadly, on average males earn more in these female-dominated jobs than females do, when averaged for experience and skill.

I agree with everything you said, including that the historical reason for this is the oppression of women - Garbo just asked for an example of a situation where men faced a stigma that women did not. (And as she pointed out, this specific scenario is not at all representative of women in the workforce.)

I feel compelled to add that I have not personally observed or heard about that stigma and had a lot of male teachers all through school, including elementary (and I also come from a very long line of elementary school educators, going back to the nineteenth century so I figure I would have heard about it by now). Both my fifth and sixth grade teachers (one of whom swapped out to teach second grade afterward) were dudes and were well respected.
Also also men are becoming increasingly common in pink collar jobs anyway (of course, these jobs are also less likely to be part of the pink ghetto, where they have no opportunity for upward mobility after the reach a certain level)

[Golden Applesauce]

Why? Why is it awkward to be the only person of your gender in a class?

Did their female classmates make fun of them? Ask them why they were in the class? Insinuate things about their body parts or sexual orientation? Treat them poorly in social situations?

Did this treatment translate to the work place?

There doesn't need to be explicit harassment to make minorities feel unwelcome. To the extent that we are socialized in gender-specific ways, there are real differences in the shared experiences that a person would expect to have with another person of the same vs. a different gender. It's always easier to strike up a conversation with someone feel you'll have more in common with. And then there are topics and conversations that are more comfortable to have when it's "just the guys" or "just the girls." People of both genders moderate themselves more or differently in mixed company - and someone of the minority gender picks up on that and feel less included. It might just be that the one guy in the class gets fewer opportunities to bond at a deeper level with his female classmates, or maybe they come to think of him as just one of the girls. Then at least he's included, but the group's acceptance is implicitly conditioned on his not reminding them that he isn't a girl. Even when no one's trying to be sexist, that kind of thing happens.

[Salty]

I'd like to say something about "Lesbian" porn. It's a misnomer. A more accurate way to put it would be Woman on Woman porn. I mean, have you ever watched that stuff and seen anything but the same exact type of women who are in all the other "normal" porn out there? Have you ever seen a slim, short-haired, androgynous or male-expressive woman on one end? I'm not saying all lesbian couples have this gender expression, I'm just saying that the term Lesbian Porn is just a marketing term. They just leave the dudes out and use the same women, and it is very much a part of same cycle.

We can't pretend the porn industry, generally, has any interest in pushing feminist interests, and I think we can agree that that most lesbians are at least somewhat concerned with those very interests. It sets yet another ridiculous standard for women, it is just another Candybar Wrapper for people to chew them up and spit them out, and brings the issue of gender expression and all its complexity down to something well and truly stupid or ignores it completely. It's a little thing, but it bugs the fuck out of me.
***
As for workplace stigma, being a male LMT is extremely difficult.
The reason most people want a massage from a woman is because A)they're male and do not want a man touching them for, well, I'm guessing a heap of sexual repression and/or projection (saying to themselves "I would want to do something inappropriate, so he must".) or B) they're female and they don't want a man to touch them. The latter I understand more, but is still frustrating. I do not, however, blame them. I blame a prudish society that obviously doesn't take care of itself enough to take steps to prevent the things that happen to women that make them afraid that someone who is paid to make them feel good is going to take advantage of them.

I've tried to focus a practice working with gay men only, but you can imagine how that turned out...which was a shame.

[Salty]

Also: I got into it with one of Garbo's FB people RE: the giant fucking parasite that is the Women's Image Industry.
I was flabbergasted that any woman would feel that men are held to the same standard of appearances that women are because "Men are expected to be in-shape in out society" or similar garbage.

How? How could a woman think that? You go to any newsstand in the US, or most places I imagine, the amount of magazine covers with picture perfect bodies and hair featuring women is staggering compared to...well, say, car magazines? They're about even there. Those with men with 200 million abs and pecs that reach the sun exist, of course, but the simple numbers are, well, beyond debate, really.

Not to mention men are expected to be fit and muscular. Women are expected to be skinny. This expectation seems to come from other women. The expectation from men, generally, seems to be a certain kind of proportion with Sumptuous Hourglass at the top of the list. Either way, they do not allow for the myriad of bodytypes hardwired into your average human.

What I want to know is why in the hell would a woman, in the 21st Century, who is NOT a Fundamentalist not realize this? Why would you want to assume that this is an equal expectation between genders.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Porn is no different from any other entertainment medium - most of it is complete shit. Most music sucks. Most movies suck. Most books suck. Most porn doesn't swallow.

[BabylonHoruv]

ILU FREEKY.


Please provide me with a situation where "female privilege" would exist, Dingo (I'm looking for stats on your assertion regarding the "bi/homosexual females are less likely to be assaulted for being queer" and I gotta tell you, the results are not supporting it. And that's not even including the rape statistics).

In Ohio women are FAR more likely to get custody of children in divorce cases or breakups of non-marriage relationships.

That's the most stark case of female privilege I have seen.  The anecdotal evidence I have that it is not always justified is my co-worker, he works full time, doesn't do drugs or break the law, the only mark against him is that he is heavily tattooed.  His ex GF meanwhile is a regular drug user who keeps being arrested for breaking and entering.  The only reason my co-worker currently has custody of his daughter is because his ex is actually in jail, and as soon as she gets out she gets her back.