book burning party looks like something Discordians would do

[The Good Reverend Roger]

OK, I think I'm starting to see where we're talking past each other here. You seem to see the MF as targeting people who were against the tax until they were shown that shutting down the library would have pretty much the same effect as burning the books. My impression is that it mainly targeted people who were either for the tax from the beginning or completely uninformed about it, but would have been for it if they knew. Again, I think the outcome was a good thing (assuming the "issues" voters didn't accidentally vote in somebody who's going to do something much worse than shutting down the library while they were there). My main problem is that the page kept its real agenda under wraps until right before the election, which suggests that the organizers felt that using the book burning message to get people to the page then hitting them with the real message wasn't enough. In order to get people to act, they needed to make sure the righteous furor over an imaginary threat was at a fever pitch.

It makes no sense to target the teabaggers; they are fanatics, and will not be swayed.  The object here was to counter the teabaggers' propaganda with propaganda of their own.  Was it over the top?  All propaganda is.  At some point, you have to make a decision...Sin a bit, or lose with a halo.  In other words, you can get in the gutter and fight with the whores, or you can hand everything over to the teabaggers and congratulate yourself on a sparkling clean ethical code that also happens to ensure the worst outcome for everyone.

This. We're in a war of propaganda. The truth being a casualty is a foregone conclusion. There's no way to resurrect the truth, because the truth is whatever the winner says it is anyway. There is no such thing as an "objective reality" when it comes to propaganda, and trying to get people to think critically and objectively in large numbers is a fool's errand. Enlightenment never happens when there are more than one or two people in a room, and usually even one person is too large a crowd for enlightenment.

Leave moderation to the losers. If there's one thing this century has taught me so far, it's that extremism must be balanced with violently overcalculated counter-extremism. That sounds like I'm shitting you but no. It's the truth: this is the New Way. And it's the ONLY way to win.

"Extremism in the defense of extremism is no vice."
- J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, testifying before congress, 1964

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What I'm saying is, if there is no blood on the ground, and no families of your political enemies starving to death, you're probably doing OK.

This.

[LMNO]

The point about waiting until the election was close was to keep the momentum going, and to ensure they had maximum attention before revealing their message.  If they had started with the punchline ("closing libraries = burning books"), they would have been crushed and trampled by the teabaggers.  They would have gotten no traction.  Remember, they were broke, and couldn't spend millions of dollars on traditional advertising.  They waited until they had maximum mindshare* before the reveal.  And I just want to point out that they didn't actually trick anyone into voting yes, because they revealed their true intentions before the election.  They told everyone, prior to polling, "this is about saving the library, not about burning books."  If that is manipulation, it's one of the mildest forms I've seen.










*sorry, I'm at work.  These things spill out.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, grabbing your opponent's agenda and running off with it is a time-honored Discordian tradition.

When I was in Boston with the East coast spags, we happened to be on the common for the Gay pride thingie.  There was a bunch of sour "counter-protestors"  (  ) there, holding up badly worded religious signs.  Rather than taunt them for being bigots, I took issue with the signs as not being Christian enough.

They were prepared to be taunted by LGBT folks, they were not prepared to be called out as sub-standard fanatics.

[Cain]

Also, grabbing your opponent's agenda and running off with it is a time-honored Discordian tradition.

When I was in Boston with the East coast spags, we happened to be on the common for the Gay pride thingie.  There was a bunch of sour "counter-protestors"  (  ) there, holding up badly worded religious signs.  Rather than taunt them for being bigots, I took issue with the signs as not being Christian enough.

They were prepared to be taunted by LGBT folks, they were not prepared to be called out as sub-standard fanatics.

They just didn't love Jesus enough to use a dictionary .  Very sad.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, grabbing your opponent's agenda and running off with it is a time-honored Discordian tradition.

When I was in Boston with the East coast spags, we happened to be on the common for the Gay pride thingie.  There was a bunch of sour "counter-protestors"  (  ) there, holding up badly worded religious signs.  Rather than taunt them for being bigots, I took issue with the signs as not being Christian enough.

They were prepared to be taunted by LGBT folks, they were not prepared to be called out as sub-standard fanatics.

They just didn't love Jesus enough to use a dictionary .  Very sad.

"Jesus saves from hell."

Apparently, Jesus keeps his office in hell. 

[kingyak]

I basically agree with everything you guys are saying, and once again I think the end justifies the means in this particular case. I'm even fine with "tricking" the people who scream first, ask questions never. I just would have like to have seen some way (maybe a link somewhere in the "about" section or something) for the people who try to actually make sure they're informed on an issue before howling about it to get in on the joke. Otherwise, it's kind  of like writing a mystery novel where the killer is someone who isn't introduced until the final chapter. Also, as I said in my original post, I think it's a bad sign that this level of propaganda is required for something as seemingly obvious as keeping a library from shutting down.

[LMNO]

"Informed"?  Like, "are they really going to burn books"?  That's... silly.

The information was out there.  This signs said, [paraphrase] "Vote to close the library on the 20th.  Book burning party on the 23rd".  The connection was there from the start.  You're saying that the voters needed their hands held.

[kingyak]

"Informed"?  Like, "are they really going to burn books"?  That's... silly.

The information was out there.  This signs said, [paraphrase] "Vote to close the library on the 20th.  Book burning party on the 23rd".  The connection was there from the start.  You're saying that the voters needed their hands held.

Maybe our difference here is geographical. Where I live, the likelihood of a sign like that meaning exactly what it says is at least as high (and probably a little higher) than it being a clever propaganda tool.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, as I said in my original post, I think it's a bad sign that this level of propaganda is required for something as seemingly obvious as keeping a library from shutting down.

Suggestion:  Empty the planet, and repopulate with something that isn't a primate.

[LMNO]

"Informed"?  Like, "are they really going to burn books"?  That's... silly.

The information was out there.  This signs said, [paraphrase] "Vote to close the library on the 20th.  Book burning party on the 23rd".  The connection was there from the start.  You're saying that the voters needed their hands held.

Maybe our difference here is geographical. Where I live, the likelihood of a sign like that meaning exactly what it says is at least as high (and probably a little higher) than it being a clever propaganda tool.

Wait, what?  Your point is that the signs didn't reflect their intentions?


Their point is that if the library closes, you may as well burn the books.  Which is exactly what their signs said.


Are you mad at their use of nuance?

[kingyak]

Also, as I said in my original post, I think it's a bad sign that this level of propaganda is required for something as seemingly obvious as keeping a library from shutting down.

Suggestion:  Empty the planet, and repopulate with something that isn't a primate.

Seconded. I vote bears. They're the next best jugglers.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm really having trouble spotting the problem here.

It's not like all of human history didn't revolve around HUGE propaganda efforts to get people lined up behind something.

For example:  World War I german soldiers were neither Huns, nor did they make soap out of French babies.

[LMNO]

Go ahead, pull the other one.  Next you'll be telling me that Taylor Swift's popularity isn't soley based on her songwriting skills and vocal ability.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Go ahead, pull the other one.  Next you'll be telling me that Taylor Swift's popularity isn't soley based on her songwriting skills and vocal ability.

Balls.  She's the next Nina Simone.