Fuck it, I'll put you assknockers in my annotated bibliography. BARBIE TALK!

[Salty]

2. No one is forcing you to be purchase barbie dolls for your children, America. You could purchase any damn doll you want, this is America not N. Korea where every doll is Kim Jung Ill RIP. Just because Americans are stupid doesn't mean it's a toys company's fault that women have a collective unhealthy view of their bodies.

BAM.

When my daughter was very small, she wanted barbies.  I thought about it and decided that her having a few common frames of reference with her peers outweighed the negatives involved.  I spent years encouraging her to think and speak for herself, and things like barbie fell by the wayside by age 8 or so.  And not just the dolls, which go away eventually anyway, but the whole mindset.  She still wears a uniform (you really can't NOT at 16), but at least her uniform is "nonconformity for its own sake", which should, I expect, evolve into "I don't need any particular uniform".

Nobody is forcing anybody to purchase barbies, but barbie is so metasticized that the only way to totally keep the barbie thing out is to refuse your kids no matter what and actively discourage everybody you know from giving barbies as gifts. Then barbie is FORBIDDENFORBIDDENFORBIDDEN and your kid grows up hating you because you're a fanatic who made her feel like a freak since ALL HER FRIENDS HAD BARBIES and she rebels for the rest of her life by emulating stupid barbie shit with a vengeance.

I think TGRR handled it the right way. Just get the kid a damn barbie and hope some of the stuff you told them sinks in.

If you think it outweighs the consequences. If that feeling of FORBIDDEN becomes so important than perhaps the child needs more stimulus in their life. If all her friends jumped off a bridge...
Of course a bridge is no comparison.
Barbies are not nearly as bad as a fall from a bridge, or war, or so many other things. Again, they're just dolls.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

She's been glamorous
She's been glorious
She's told us that math is hard.
Now, for the first time ever

Its Overweight Barbie!
That's right Overweight Barbie!

She's spent too long in front of her Barbie TV!
and too much time in that Barbie Kitchen!

Now take Overweight Barbie to the local greasy spoon with Beerbelly Ken!

With the all new "Split the Bill" accessories!

She's too big for her Barbie Car, so buy the new Barbie Minivan!

(Beerbelly Ken, Stretch Pants and Crane sold seperately.)

Oldie, but couldn't resist

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

2. No one is forcing you to be purchase barbie dolls for your children, America. You could purchase any damn doll you want, this is America not N. Korea where every doll is Kim Jung Ill RIP. Just because Americans are stupid doesn't mean it's a toys company's fault that women have a collective unhealthy view of their bodies.

BAM.

When my daughter was very small, she wanted barbies.  I thought about it and decided that her having a few common frames of reference with her peers outweighed the negatives involved.  I spent years encouraging her to think and speak for herself, and things like barbie fell by the wayside by age 8 or so.  And not just the dolls, which go away eventually anyway, but the whole mindset.  She still wears a uniform (you really can't NOT at 16), but at least her uniform is "nonconformity for its own sake", which should, I expect, evolve into "I don't need any particular uniform".

Nobody is forcing anybody to purchase barbies, but barbie is so metasticized that the only way to totally keep the barbie thing out is to refuse your kids no matter what and actively discourage everybody you know from giving barbies as gifts. Then barbie is FORBIDDENFORBIDDENFORBIDDEN and your kid grows up hating you because you're a fanatic who made her feel like a freak since ALL HER FRIENDS HAD BARBIES and she rebels for the rest of her life by emulating stupid barbie shit with a vengeance.

I think TGRR handled it the right way. Just get the kid a damn barbie and hope some of the stuff you told them sinks in.

If you think it outweighs the consequences. If that feeling of FORBIDDEN becomes so important than perhaps the child needs more stimulus in their life. If all her friends jumped off a bridge...
Of course a bridge is no comparison.
Barbies are not nearly as bad as a fall from a bridge, or war, or so many other things. Again, they're just dolls.

You FUCK. 

OK, try this:

Barbie is a mascot for a fucked up paradigm. You wouldn't give other things that had fucked up ideas attached to them to a kid, like Gacy clown pictures.

Barbie is just plastic, but so is a dildo...WOULD YOU GIVE A KID A DILDO?

[Placid Dingo]

2. No one is forcing you to be purchase barbie dolls for your children, America. You could purchase any damn doll you want, this is America not N. Korea where every doll is Kim Jung Ill RIP. Just because Americans are stupid doesn't mean it's a toys company's fault that women have a collective unhealthy view of their bodies.

BAM.

When my daughter was very small, she wanted barbies.  I thought about it and decided that her having a few common frames of reference with her peers outweighed the negatives involved.  I spent years encouraging her to think and speak for herself, and things like barbie fell by the wayside by age 8 or so.  And not just the dolls, which go away eventually anyway, but the whole mindset.  She still wears a uniform (you really can't NOT at 16), but at least her uniform is "nonconformity for its own sake", which should, I expect, evolve into "I don't need any particular uniform".

Nobody is forcing anybody to purchase barbies, but barbie is so metasticized that the only way to totally keep the barbie thing out is to refuse your kids no matter what and actively discourage everybody you know from giving barbies as gifts. Then barbie is FORBIDDENFORBIDDENFORBIDDEN and your kid grows up hating you because you're a fanatic who made her feel like a freak since ALL HER FRIENDS HAD BARBIES and she rebels for the rest of her life by emulating stupid barbie shit with a vengeance.

I think TGRR handled it the right way. Just get the kid a damn barbie and hope some of the stuff you told them sinks in.

If you think it outweighs the consequences. If that feeling of FORBIDDEN becomes so important than perhaps the child needs more stimulus in their life. If all her friends jumped off a bridge...
Of course a bridge is no comparison.
Barbies are not nearly as bad as a fall from a bridge, or war, or so many other things. Again, they're just dolls.

You FUCK. 

OK, try this:

Barbie is a mascot for a fucked up paradigm. You wouldn't give other things that had fucked up ideas attached to them to a kid, like Gacy clown pictures.

Barbie is just plastic, but so is a dildo...WOULD YOU GIVE A KID A DILDO?

Who the fucks buys plastic dildos?

[Salty]

2. No one is forcing you to be purchase barbie dolls for your children, America. You could purchase any damn doll you want, this is America not N. Korea where every doll is Kim Jung Ill RIP. Just because Americans are stupid doesn't mean it's a toys company's fault that women have a collective unhealthy view of their bodies.

BAM.

When my daughter was very small, she wanted barbies.  I thought about it and decided that her having a few common frames of reference with her peers outweighed the negatives involved.  I spent years encouraging her to think and speak for herself, and things like barbie fell by the wayside by age 8 or so.  And not just the dolls, which go away eventually anyway, but the whole mindset.  She still wears a uniform (you really can't NOT at 16), but at least her uniform is "nonconformity for its own sake", which should, I expect, evolve into "I don't need any particular uniform".

Nobody is forcing anybody to purchase barbies, but barbie is so metasticized that the only way to totally keep the barbie thing out is to refuse your kids no matter what and actively discourage everybody you know from giving barbies as gifts. Then barbie is FORBIDDENFORBIDDENFORBIDDEN and your kid grows up hating you because you're a fanatic who made her feel like a freak since ALL HER FRIENDS HAD BARBIES and she rebels for the rest of her life by emulating stupid barbie shit with a vengeance.

I think TGRR handled it the right way. Just get the kid a damn barbie and hope some of the stuff you told them sinks in.

If you think it outweighs the consequences. If that feeling of FORBIDDEN becomes so important than perhaps the child needs more stimulus in their life. If all her friends jumped off a bridge...
Of course a bridge is no comparison.
Barbies are not nearly as bad as a fall from a bridge, or war, or so many other things. Again, they're just dolls.

You FUCK. 

OK, try this:

Barbie is a mascot for a fucked up paradigm. You wouldn't give other things that had fucked up ideas attached to them to a kid, like Gacy clown pictures.

Barbie is just plastic, but so is a dildo...WOULD YOU GIVE A KID A DILDO?

You're right, I wouldn't.
Thus, Barbie doesn't really have an effect on my life. Not really a big deal, you know?
Certainly not as bad for a child to play with as a dildo.

Also, what PD said.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

2. No one is forcing you to be purchase barbie dolls for your children, America. You could purchase any damn doll you want, this is America not N. Korea where every doll is Kim Jung Ill RIP. Just because Americans are stupid doesn't mean it's a toys company's fault that women have a collective unhealthy view of their bodies.

BAM.

When my daughter was very small, she wanted barbies.  I thought about it and decided that her having a few common frames of reference with her peers outweighed the negatives involved.  I spent years encouraging her to think and speak for herself, and things like barbie fell by the wayside by age 8 or so.  And not just the dolls, which go away eventually anyway, but the whole mindset.  She still wears a uniform (you really can't NOT at 16), but at least her uniform is "nonconformity for its own sake", which should, I expect, evolve into "I don't need any particular uniform".

Nobody is forcing anybody to purchase barbies, but barbie is so metasticized that the only way to totally keep the barbie thing out is to refuse your kids no matter what and actively discourage everybody you know from giving barbies as gifts. Then barbie is FORBIDDENFORBIDDENFORBIDDEN and your kid grows up hating you because you're a fanatic who made her feel like a freak since ALL HER FRIENDS HAD BARBIES and she rebels for the rest of her life by emulating stupid barbie shit with a vengeance.

I think TGRR handled it the right way. Just get the kid a damn barbie and hope some of the stuff you told them sinks in.

If you think it outweighs the consequences. If that feeling of FORBIDDEN becomes so important than perhaps the child needs more stimulus in their life. If all her friends jumped off a bridge...
Of course a bridge is no comparison.
Barbies are not nearly as bad as a fall from a bridge, or war, or so many other things. Again, they're just dolls.

You FUCK. 

OK, try this:

Barbie is a mascot for a fucked up paradigm. You wouldn't give other things that had fucked up ideas attached to them to a kid, like Gacy clown pictures.

Barbie is just plastic, but so is a dildo...WOULD YOU GIVE A KID A DILDO?

Who the fucks buys plastic dildos?

OK, rubber.

Cut me some slack, I could've said "your mom". 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

It's bad for a kid to play with a dildo?

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

It's bad for a kid to play with a dildo?

[Freeky]

Yeah, we need a devil's advocate.

Kay. Barbie plays as much a role for developing little snooty, high-class fashionistas obsessed about their weight and figure as the game Operation plays on incompetent doctors.

Okay, Mr. Smarty Pance. 

I say that is a false equivocation.  NOBODY is advocating that malpracticing doctors are desirable, but so many sources are either subtly or overtly supporting this body type as ideal.

1. It's just a doll. It may be an idealized doll of astoundingly stupid proportions, but it's still just a doll. Boys that play with GI Joe don't all become obsessed with guns that shoot plastic, flame shaped projectiles. Little girls playing with blocks don't all become construction workers. Kids take away what they put in, and they put in what you give them. If you give them a piece of plastic shaped into painful social conditioning (debatable to begin with) and fail to instruct them on how the world actually work you can't damn well blame the plastic. That's the parent's deal.

I'm going to counter the bolded argument and say that is exactly what little boys do.  Boys are obsessed with guns in general, and the more explosive a gun and its ammunition is the better.  In my experience. 

I have heard other personal stories where men say they've played with barbie dolls, though.  So no, not all boys do, but a great many do.

As for the underlined, construction jobs are not a traditional woman's job.  Drawing on the "Why is feminism a bad word?" thread and the arguments provided (I'm not sure there were links to evidence, I forget) about women having lower income overall and especially in male dominated workplaces, and I saw somewhere here a link to something where the hiring of women since the economic collapse had dropped to one percent, I'm going to say that women just don't apply for those jobs generally speaking.  Thanks to Title IX, there are obviously women in construction, but not very many.

2. No one is forcing you to be purchase barbie dolls for your children, America. You could purchase any damn doll you want, this is America not N. Korea where every doll is Kim Jung Ill RIP. Just because Americans are stupid doesn't mean it's a toys company's fault that women have a collective unhealthy view of their bodies.

BAM.

Kids do.  Kids want what they see on the teevee because that's what all their friends have and also SHINY LOOK AT THOSE KIDS HAVING FUN LOOOOOOOK!, and kids are beastly little things.  If there is one who is different from the rest of the pack, that one gets ostracized, even over something as stupid as a doll.  That's a monkey brain thing, though.

[Juana]

A gal I used to know had one of those.

just wanted to point out that it's nothing new.
people have had idealized versions of the human form that are unattainable by the vast majority forever.
(which, of course, is a changing thing. but it's never the average form)

also, i wonder if barbie would look significantly different if it was made to the average man's concept of the "perfect female" form rather than what, apparently, little girls idealize. I'm thinking it would. and i'm thinking it wouldn't be as malproportioned.

also, why wouldn't you capitalize her name?  barbie doesn't mean 'doll', it means 'a doll named Barbie', as in Barbara, right?

Little girls don't idealize it (until they're taught to). Adults do and adults shaped that doll from the get-go. I think, if it were not for the enculturation that teaches that "fat" is wrong and "thin, freakish proportions you have no possibility of attaining" are right, that little girls probably wouldn't care what the damn doll looked like (check out rag dolls, for example). And I think that barbie's mass appeal - that it's everywhere and every little girl has to have one to have a common frame of reference - helps with that enculturation and the absorption of the fucked up body expectations we have of women.

[Freeky]

Exactly, Garbo.  It isn't the doll itself, that is just a thing that adults pointed at when they realized how hurt they had been and how damaged they had become. 

I think it does have its own brand of bad signal, because there was this little girl in Barbie Nation who said that even though being pretty isn't important, if you aren't pretty you won't have friends. 

[Salty]

Yeah, we need a devil's advocate.

Kay. Barbie plays as much a role for developing little snooty, high-class fashionistas obsessed about their weight and figure as the game Operation plays on incompetent doctors.

Okay, Mr. Smarty Pance. 

I say that is a false equivocation.  NOBODY is advocating that malpracticing doctors are desirable, but so many sources are either subtly or overtly supporting this body type as ideal.

1. It's just a doll. It may be an idealized doll of astoundingly stupid proportions, but it's still just a doll. Boys that play with GI Joe don't all become obsessed with guns that shoot plastic, flame shaped projectiles. Little girls playing with blocks don't all become construction workers. Kids take away what they put in, and they put in what you give them. If you give them a piece of plastic shaped into painful social conditioning (debatable to begin with) and fail to instruct them on how the world actually work you can't damn well blame the plastic. That's the parent's deal.

1.I'm going to counter the bolded argument and say that is exactly what little boys do.  Boys are obsessed with guns in general, and the more explosive a gun and its ammunition is the better.  In my experience. 

I have heard other personal stories where men say they've played with barbie dolls, though.  So no, not all boys do, but a great many do.

As for the underlined, construction jobs are not a traditional woman's job.  Drawing on the "Why is feminism a bad word?" thread and the arguments provided (I'm not sure there were links to evidence, I forget) about women having lower income overall and especially in male dominated workplaces, and I saw somewhere here a link to something where the hiring of women since the economic collapse had dropped to one percent, I'm going to say that women just don't apply for those jobs generally speaking.  Thanks to Title IX, there are obviously women in construction, but not very many.

2. No one is forcing you to be purchase barbie dolls for your children, America. You could purchase any damn doll you want, this is America not N. Korea where every doll is Kim Jung Ill RIP. Just because Americans are stupid doesn't mean it's a toys company's fault that women have a collective unhealthy view of their bodies.

BAM.

2. Kids do.  Kids want what they see on the teevee because that's what all their friends have and also SHINY LOOK AT THOSE KIDS HAVING FUN LOOOOOOOK!, and kids are beastly little things.  If there is one who is different from the rest of the pack, that one gets ostracized, even over something as stupid as a doll.  That's a monkey brain thing, though.

1. Ah, but those GI Joe toys don't have actual explosions, they're plastic. Barbie's shape is her primary feature. Those other kind of toys focus on projectile gun thingies, that's their primary feature. Even if it wasn't you could say the projectiles are more akin to Barbie's clothes, which depend on her form. If little boys should want to use real guns they have the resources to use them in a safe fashion. Meanwhile, if girls grow up to be women who want real clothes they have to recognize that, much like the guns, these are real and they can't be considered in the same way. That's, again, the parents job to do.

Exactly, but the point I was making was the toys you play with do not shape you in such a complete, top-to-bottom manner. They are just dolls.

2. I answered this mostly in response Anna's post. There's always something kids will find if they want to reject you. How can you protect them from everything? Which is worse, the rejection from peers or a life-long fixation with female form? If the latter stance is possible in your position then you have a choice to make. Barbie does not.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

They are just dolls.

And Fox News is just a TV station.  Can't hurt anyone.   

[Freeky]

Yeah, we need a devil's advocate.

Kay. Barbie plays as much a role for developing little snooty, high-class fashionistas obsessed about their weight and figure as the game Operation plays on incompetent doctors.

Okay, Mr. Smarty Pance. 

I say that is a false equivocation.  NOBODY is advocating that malpracticing doctors are desirable, but so many sources are either subtly or overtly supporting this body type as ideal.

1. It's just a doll. It may be an idealized doll of astoundingly stupid proportions, but it's still just a doll. Boys that play with GI Joe don't all become obsessed with guns that shoot plastic, flame shaped projectiles. Little girls playing with blocks don't all become construction workers. Kids take away what they put in, and they put in what you give them. If you give them a piece of plastic shaped into painful social conditioning (debatable to begin with) and fail to instruct them on how the world actually work you can't damn well blame the plastic. That's the parent's deal.

1.I'm going to counter the bolded argument and say that is exactly what little boys do.  Boys are obsessed with guns in general, and the more explosive a gun and its ammunition is the better.  In my experience. 

I have heard other personal stories where men say they've played with barbie dolls, though.  So no, not all boys do, but a great many do.

As for the underlined, construction jobs are not a traditional woman's job.  Drawing on the "Why is feminism a bad word?" thread and the arguments provided (I'm not sure there were links to evidence, I forget) about women having lower income overall and especially in male dominated workplaces, and I saw somewhere here a link to something where the hiring of women since the economic collapse had dropped to one percent, I'm going to say that women just don't apply for those jobs generally speaking.  Thanks to Title IX, there are obviously women in construction, but not very many.

2. No one is forcing you to be purchase barbie dolls for your children, America. You could purchase any damn doll you want, this is America not N. Korea where every doll is Kim Jung Ill RIP. Just because Americans are stupid doesn't mean it's a toys company's fault that women have a collective unhealthy view of their bodies.

BAM.

2. Kids do.  Kids want what they see on the teevee because that's what all their friends have and also SHINY LOOK AT THOSE KIDS HAVING FUN LOOOOOOOK!, and kids are beastly little things.  If there is one who is different from the rest of the pack, that one gets ostracized, even over something as stupid as a doll.  That's a monkey brain thing, though.

1. Ah, but those GI Joe toys don't have actual explosions, they're plastic. Barbie's shape is her primary feature. Those other kind of toys focus on projectile gun thingies, that's their primary feature. Even if it wasn't you could say the projectiles are more akin to Barbie's clothes, which depend on her form. If little boys should want to use real guns they have the resources to use them in a safe fashion. Meanwhile, if girls grow up to be women who want real clothes they have to recognize that, much like the guns, these are real and they can't be considered in the same way. That's, again, the parents job to do.

Exactly, but the point I was making was the toys you play with do not shape you in such a complete, top-to-bottom manner. They are just dolls.

2. I answered this mostly in response Anna's post. There's always something kids will find if they want to reject you. How can you protect them from everything? Which is worse, the rejection from peers or a life-long fixation with female form? If the latter stance is possible in your position then you have a choice to make. Barbie does not.

Yeah, they're just dolls.  But there are people out there who were deeply damaged because they couldn't make themselves look like barbie dolls.  I think that is related to other issues, though.  Your sister seems to have been fine, but there are others who became anorexic and bulemic.  So maybe it's a matter of they had to start out that way?

[Freeky]

By "start out that way," I mean that that seed of madness was already there, but maybe not formed up.  I'm talking like, neurological disorders and stuff, which sometimes don't kick in until puberty.  Or, if you like, it can be environmental factors: a kid at the bottom of the food chain gets picked on all the time, doesn't get to play because they are marked as the "outsider," and so they figure if they try to be like what everyone wants them to be hard enough, they'll be part of the group and make friends and be popular.