A curiosity about the South, for people who live here

[LMNO]

In a lesser, but equally vicious and entrenched way, this reminds me of Southie (South Boston) culture, and the whole Boston busing riots in the 70s.  There is still open racism and hostility to other cultures in some parts of Southie, unrepentant.  It seems to linger due to self-imposed social isolation, primate territorialism, economic disadvantages, and resentment towards an authority forcing their actions.

In an even quiter form of semi-conscious racism, The Red Sox didn't integrate until 1962 (twenty years after Jackie Robinson).

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

In a lesser, but equally vicious and entrenched way, this reminds me of Southie (South Boston) culture, and the whole Boston busing riots in the 70s.  There is still open racism and hostility to other cultures in some parts of Southie, unrepentant.  It seems to linger due to self-imposed social isolation, primate territorialism, economic disadvantages, and resentment towards an authority forcing their actions.

In an even quiter form of semi-conscious racism, The Red Sox didn't integrate until 1962 (twenty years after Jackie Robinson).

Yes, the racism up there surprised me. I used to have this naive idea that I wouldn't see much racism once I got out of the region where you open the "weddings" section of the paper and see guys in cowboy hats.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

In a lesser, but equally vicious and entrenched way, this reminds me of Southie (South Boston) culture, and the whole Boston busing riots in the 70s.  There is still open racism and hostility to other cultures in some parts of Southie, unrepentant.  It seems to linger due to self-imposed social isolation, primate territorialism, economic disadvantages, and resentment towards an authority forcing their actions.

In an even quiter form of semi-conscious racism, The Red Sox didn't integrate until 1962 (twenty years after Jackie Robinson).

Yes, the racism up there surprised me. I used to have this naive idea that I wouldn't see much racism once I got out of the region where you open the "weddings" section of the paper and see guys in cowboy hats.

It's unfortunate, but true. Racism in the South is more institutional but no more prevalent than racism in the North or the West. This is why it's silly that so many people assume the South is somehow unique in its racism, or that Southerners are all ignorant and/or stupid because they live in a place where racism prevails. Considering the history of the South you'd think they would be applauded for the progress that's been made there in the last century. How fast could New York go from its current culture to one of equality between people and horses? It seems ridiculous and offensive to say that, but that is literally how blacks were viewed in the South 150 years ago.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I wouldn't say "equality", there's a lot of selective enforcement that goes on. But it happens up north, too. I remember a lot of Black people getting pulled over for driving through Marblehead, Mass. It happened enough to make the news.

That kind of thing happens here, too, and usually doesn't get picked up by the news. It's a culture of "STFU if you know what's good for you".

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Innocent until proven guilty. Or is that only when you find it personally convenient?

All White Juries.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon. 

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

Thank you, you nailed it.

Yes, they're human, but the way to look at it IS as an infectious meme, not "Oh the klan wasn't so bad".

[The Good Reverend Roger]

There's a lot of pride involved in remembering the war.

Why?

1.  It was an ignoble cause.
2.  The South lost.
3.  Heroism means jack shit when you're fighting for bad guys.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

Thank you, you nailed it.

Yes, they're human, but the way to look at it IS as an infectious meme, not "Oh the klan wasn't so bad".

But nobody said the Klan wasn't bad. And nobody said slavery was good. And nobody said blacks were anything like respected or equal in the South. And nobody said the justice system wasn't horribly corrupt to the point of practically enouraging murder (except GA maybe, depending on whether he's trolling or not, which I can't seem to tell). All that's been said here boils down to the following few statements:

- Despite the morally ruinous foundations of the Confederacy, the South should have had every legal right to secede, and the Civil War really was a "War of Northern Aggression," in that the justification on the North's side had nothing to do with slavery or equality and everything to do with power and greed, as usual.

- The Civil War exacerbated the race problem in the South. Whereas blacks were considered subhuman before the war, after the war they were considered both subhuman and representative of a mortal wound to the South. As a result the cultural changes that have opened the South and dissolved (some of the) racism there have been harder to fight than they otherwise would have been.

Nobody here is condoning slavery or racism. So let's leave out the knee-jerk reactions and the "you disagree with Commonly Held Conception X; therefore you are by definition a proponent of the opposite of Commonly Held Conception X." In reality the common perception of the South is a  caricature, grounded in and propagated by the same kind of ignorance and Us vs. Them bullshit that allows racism to thrive.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

But nobody said the Klan wasn't bad. And nobody said slavery was good. And nobody said blacks were anything like respected or equal in the South. And nobody said the justice system wasn't horribly corrupt to the point of practically enouraging murder (except GA maybe, depending on whether he's trolling or not, which I can't seem to tell). All that's been said here boils down to the following few statements:

- Despite the morally ruinous foundations of the Confederacy, the South should have had every legal right to secede, and the Civil War really was a "War of Northern Aggression," in that the justification on the North's side had nothing to do with slavery or equality and everything to do with power and greed, as usual.

- The Civil War exacerbated the race problem in the South. Whereas blacks were considered subhuman before the war, after the war they were considered both subhuman and representative of a mortal wound to the South. As a result the cultural changes that have opened the South and dissolved (some of the) racism there have been harder to fight than they otherwise would have been.

Nobody here is condoning slavery or racism. So let's leave out the knee-jerk reactions and the "you disagree with Commonly Held Conception X; therefore you are by definition a proponent of the opposite of Commonly Held Conception X." In reality the common perception of the South is a  caricature, grounded in and propagated by the same kind of ignorance and Us vs. Them bullshit that allows racism to thrive.

I wasn't talking about the discussion here.  I was referring to the recurring meme that I have seen every time I have been to the Southeast.

[LMNO]

v3x, I find myself disagreeing with your second point.  Is there a way to demonstrate that institutionalized racism and slavery can be overcome without external coersion?

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon.

Thank you, you nailed it.

Yes, they're human, but the way to look at it IS as an infectious meme, not "Oh the klan wasn't so bad".

But nobody said the Klan wasn't bad.

Somebody did.

Exactly! Similarly, the KKK was a social club where guys could go to get away from their wives. They raised money for charity and did volunteer work and stuff, but all anyone associates with pointy white hoods is a relatively small number of lynchings allegedly carried out by rotten eggs who also happened to be members. Allegedly, because compared to the numbers of murders the KKK was accused of, almost nobody was ever convicted of homicide.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

But nobody said the Klan wasn't bad. And nobody said slavery was good. And nobody said blacks were anything like respected or equal in the South. And nobody said the justice system wasn't horribly corrupt to the point of practically enouraging murder (except GA maybe, depending on whether he's trolling or not, which I can't seem to tell). All that's been said here boils down to the following few statements:

- Despite the morally ruinous foundations of the Confederacy, the South should have had every legal right to secede, and the Civil War really was a "War of Northern Aggression," in that the justification on the North's side had nothing to do with slavery or equality and everything to do with power and greed, as usual.

- The Civil War exacerbated the race problem in the South. Whereas blacks were considered subhuman before the war, after the war they were considered both subhuman and representative of a mortal wound to the South. As a result the cultural changes that have opened the South and dissolved (some of the) racism there have been harder to fight than they otherwise would have been.

Nobody here is condoning slavery or racism. So let's leave out the knee-jerk reactions and the "you disagree with Commonly Held Conception X; therefore you are by definition a proponent of the opposite of Commonly Held Conception X." In reality the common perception of the South is a  caricature, grounded in and propagated by the same kind of ignorance and Us vs. Them bullshit that allows racism to thrive.

I wasn't talking about the discussion here.  I was referring to the recurring meme that I have seen every time I have been to the Southeast.

I've only been once that I can recall with any clarity. My dad's aunt and uncle lived there, and that old lady spent an entire 2 days cooking and baking for us ahead of our arrival. When we arrived, there was more food than I've ever seen in a single kitchen, and it was all very very good. Fried chicken, apple pie, peach cobbler, dumplings. Etc. Etc. Etc. I remember that food, and I remember my great-uncle's hands being hardly more than knots of arthritis caused by handling radioactive material at one of the Manhattan Project's secret bases in Tennessee in the 30s and 40s.

Everyone I met in the South was nice. But then, my family is white, and I can admit I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to Southern racism -- nor can I, except to say I know it's there and I deplore it. As for whether they're stupid or not... who isn't?

[tyrannosaurus vex]

v3x, I find myself disagreeing with your second point.  Is there a way to demonstrate that institutionalized racism and slavery can be overcome without external coersion?

External coersion doesn't necessarily mean "war." It's the war that I object to, not outside pressure of any sort. It didn't take anyone invading the North to eliminate slavery there. It didn't take an invasion to eliminate slavery in Brazil, or the rest of the New World. As far as institutionalized racism -- that's the problem. External coersion increased that, it didn't eliminate it. If invasion and occupation is any kind of solution to institutionalized racism, why did Jim Crow happen at all?

[East Coast Hustle]

Of course the south won. They were fighting for freedom, which is always the right thing to do - it was a moral victory.

Raw and stinking bullshit.  They were fighting for a static aristocracy.

They were fighting for the freedom to determine how to run their own economy and government. You can't really say that someone has the God-given right to pursue happiness, and then turn around and say "Well, but only if your method of pursuing happiness doesn't include human trafficking." These were honest, Christian farmers being faced with the possibility of being unable to leave their workforce to their children. Similarly, being forced allow illiterate non-citizens with no stake in the country to cast votes defeats the entire purpose of democracy - it's not self-determination if an outside power is manipulating the voting population to  its own ends.

It's not Freedom if you can't abuse it.

I'm leaving this thread now, out of sheer depression brought on by watching two supposed bipeds defend/support this sort of shit.

WHICH IS EXACTLY

          why you need to stay and this thread needs to happen. vex and ga are doing an outstanding job, imo, in bringing a voice of reason to this issue. the very fact that most immediate reaction to any of this underlines the idea that people from the south are not people, but some kind of sub human, demands this thread to exist. nigel brought it out in point, the issues connected to the south and the confederacy  are cloaked in so much womp that even incredibly intelligent folks have only frothing response to all of it. this is important dialogue.

I never said people from the South are subhuman.  They are all too human, and many of them carry an all-too infectious meme.  My personal (anecdotal, but that's all I have to work with) experience in the South has been universally shitty, with 90% of everyone I've met being at least partially billygoon. 

That's been my personal experience everywhere in America. And I honestly haven't noticed it being any worse in the South than, say, Utah or Oregon or Michigan or Maine.