Three Little Questions

[Phox]

In America, and large portions of the world, what you own, what everybody owns, is another person's debt. We are all slaves and slave masters. Money, as it exists today, is slavery. And it's all perfectly legal. Monetary reform, I believe, will be a pivotal part in the elimination of slavery.

(If the above is stupid, let me know. I'm trying out some new brain-thoughts, and I might not quite have it "down" yet).

In some sense, I agree... but if we consider the idea that money as a 'bio-survival' tool replaced the tribal/community inter-reliance, its not necessarily more or less slavery. In fact, you could argue its somewhat less. If you are part of a tribe and survival depends on the tribe working together, then (in most cases) you're going to believe what the tribe believes, behave as the tribe expects and follow the rules of the tribe in all things, because if you don't you'll get kicked out of the tribe and lose your survival advantage. Money still maintains a level of control, but it reduces the social pressure associated with the communal system that came before it.

On the other hand, the banking system here in the States really puts all of Americans and their government as slaves to the Central Bank. The government gets its money from the Central Bank. The Central Bank charges the government interest... So it costs the government more than $1 to put $1 into circulation. The more money we get, the more interest we owe... it seems very much like the slavery of the "Company Town/Company Store" model that used to be done by mining companies. Of course, the previous system, on the Gold Standard, had its share of problems and enslavement as well.

As long as humans exist in a community/society there will be some level of subjugation of the individual to the majority. Unless the individual has the choice of voluntary association at all levels, then there will always be a 'form' of slavery, whether its enslavement to the group, the bank, the government or some combination of all three. There are some concepts that would do away with this problem... but I doubt they'd work. The Venus Project for example, is chock full of nutty... but the idea that "all natural resources belong to all humans" is an idea that "if" it could be implemented would certainly strike a blow at social slavery.

I think, then that we have levels of slavery.

Chattel slavery - people being owned by other people outright.
Sweat Shop Slavery - People "working" for a company in a situation where they have no choice, or where they get little or no real compensation for the work.
Governmental Slavery - Prison labor, laws passed by representatives without agreement from the citizens etc.
Monetary Slavery - You get money, but its only worth what the bank who gave it to you decides... and they try to take back as much of it as possible through manipulative fees, interest, usury etc
Social Slavery - The subjugation of the individual to the society.

The first two seem to be the worst, the second two are more insidious, but less direct and the last one is maybe a necessary ill of being part of human society.

Just some thinking out loud here...

I'm not sure that last one is an ill at all, let alone a form of slavery.

Yes, the last seems... hmm. I'm not sure what to feel about that. Given that my primary beliefs on ethics and morals center around the fact that it is, ultimately, the goal of a person and a society to survive, with a general leaning towards the good of the whole > the good of the individual, I have trouble rectifying ideals of radical individualism with that of my version the social contract. I must think on this.

^No idea why your comments prompted this line of thinking, but... hey, self-examination and all that. 

Well, we are a social species. That's our nature. If society is slavery, then we're an enslaved species by nature.

And that line of thinking is starting to verge on religion, so I'm disinclined to respect it.

After a good deal of thinking this over, I absolutely agree with you. I am similarly disinclined to believe that "society" (which I've come to the conclusion is very, very vague in this context, and I'm not even sure it has any meaning whatsoever) has any power to impose "slavery" on anyone. The more I consider it, the more I think that such a concept is merely rationalizing a "fuck other people" kind of sentiment as a nearly conspiratorial (in the Illuminati sense) anti-establishment ideal. Not taking shots at you, Ratatosk, and to be honest, that's mostly likely the 32 hours of insomnia talking.

[Richter]

1.  Is de facto slavery (slavery in actual fact) any different, morally, from de jure slavery (slavery by law)?
2.  Is it ever morally permissable to benefit in any way (including enjoying lower prices and thus a higher level of purchasing power/standard of living) from slavery?
3.  If you purchase goods from other nations that used slavery to make those goods, is that morally any different from having slavery right here at home?

1  to the end user, no.

2  strictly speaking, no.  Most morality in people seems tofail outside of their immediate airspace thou.

3  no, it just allowsfor maxkmization of the above effect.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

When I say subjugation to society, I'm not saying that it is necessarily 'bad', but it is a form of slavery.

For example: The individual would like to do X. X doesn't hurt anyone but the society that the individual lives in has decided for one reason or another that X is badwrong. This might be through government (like the oft debated drug issue) or the 'morals'/'ethics' of the society (see the way homosexuality has been/is treated by 'the people' in many societies, even if the government doesn't specifically forbid it). Things like racism or other forms of prejudice may often be a product of society, rather than government... and they can (and do) limit the freedom of the individual.

Consider a perfectly 'normal' (per society standards) white person of sex A and a perfectly 'normal' black person of sex B in 1940's America. The society they lived in controlled their freedoms.

Consider an individual in the nation of Israel, circa 300BC. They either worshiped in line with the society, or they were banished. (though in that case religion, government and society are all kinda mushed together).

Every society will have things that are 'taboo', either by law or simply because society will not accept it. Long haired hippy types, need not apply. Irish need not apply. You can't work here if you have tattoos or piercings, because some customer might get offended.

When I say that we are enslaved by society, that's what I'm talking about. Sure, we all need to contribute to society, but at the same time most (if not all) individuals are held to 'the social norm' at one level or another. Social taboos on sex, on who you can be with, on what you should believe, how you should dress etc etc are all a sort of slavery that is, in my opinion, an 'ill'. I don't think its particularly avoidable for a social animal like humans, but I recognize it as something that does control the freedoms of the individual, often for no 'good' purpose.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Expanding the word cheapens it, IMO.

Slavery is an abomination from which you can't just walk away.

Feeling trapped by society is another, lesser matter entirely.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Expanding the word cheapens it, IMO.

Slavery is an abomination from which you can't just walk away.

Feeling trapped by society is another, lesser matter entirely.

I agree that its a lesser matter. Which is what I said earlier.

Chattel Slavery we're slowly getting rid of as a society
Indentured Slavery and Sweat Shop Slavery we're not doing so well on.
The other stuff, maybe it will always be here (necessary ill as I said).

For me, it doesn't cheapen it, it brings it the whole issue into focus. Some would argue that getting paid shit to work in a dangerous environment isn't 'slavery' its just working at a crappy job for crappy pay. I think by pointing out that slavery exists in many forms, we circumvent that sort of thinking. But thats just my opinion.

That two men have no more natural right to exercise any kind of authority over one, than one has to exercise the same authority over two. A man's natural rights are his own, against the whole world; and any infringement of them is equally a crime, whether committed by one man, or by millions; whether committed by one man, calling himself a robber, (or by any other name indicating his true character,) or by millions, calling themselves a government [or society].

- Lysander Spooner, No Treason

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Expanding the word cheapens it, IMO.

Slavery is an abomination from which you can't just walk away.

Feeling trapped by society is another, lesser matter entirely.

I agree that its a lesser matter. Which is what I said earlier.

Chattel Slavery we're slowly getting rid of as a society
Indentured Slavery and Sweat Shop Slavery we're not doing so well on.
The other stuff, maybe it will always be here (necessary ill as I said).

For me, it doesn't cheapen it, it brings it the whole issue into focus. Some would argue that getting paid shit to work in a dangerous environment isn't 'slavery' its just working at a crappy job for crappy pay. I think by pointing out that slavery exists in many forms, we circumvent that sort of thinking. But thats just my opinion.

Do you use the word "rape" this loosely as well?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

When I say subjugation to society, I'm not saying that it is necessarily 'bad', but it is a form of slavery.

For example: The individual would like to do X. X doesn't hurt anyone but the society that the individual lives in has decided for one reason or another that X is badwrong. This might be through government (like the oft debated drug issue) or the 'morals'/'ethics' of the society (see the way homosexuality has been/is treated by 'the people' in many societies, even if the government doesn't specifically forbid it). Things like racism or other forms of prejudice may often be a product of society, rather than government... and they can (and do) limit the freedom of the individual.

Consider a perfectly 'normal' (per society standards) white person of sex A and a perfectly 'normal' black person of sex B in 1940's America. The society they lived in controlled their freedoms.

Consider an individual in the nation of Israel, circa 300BC. They either worshiped in line with the society, or they were banished. (though in that case religion, government and society are all kinda mushed together).

Every society will have things that are 'taboo', either by law or simply because society will not accept it. Long haired hippy types, need not apply. Irish need not apply. You can't work here if you have tattoos or piercings, because some customer might get offended.

When I say that we are enslaved by society, that's what I'm talking about. Sure, we all need to contribute to society, but at the same time most (if not all) individuals are held to 'the social norm' at one level or another. Social taboos on sex, on who you can be with, on what you should believe, how you should dress etc etc are all a sort of slavery that is, in my opinion, an 'ill'. I don't think its particularly avoidable for a social animal like humans, but I recognize it as something that does control the freedoms of the individual, often for no 'good' purpose.

Well then, I guess we're all enslaved by our very nature.

No use having a problem with owning and exploiting people then.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Expanding the word cheapens it, IMO.

Slavery is an abomination from which you can't just walk away.

Feeling trapped by society is another, lesser matter entirely.

I agree that its a lesser matter. Which is what I said earlier.

Chattel Slavery we're slowly getting rid of as a society
Indentured Slavery and Sweat Shop Slavery we're not doing so well on.
The other stuff, maybe it will always be here (necessary ill as I said).

For me, it doesn't cheapen it, it brings it the whole issue into focus. Some would argue that getting paid shit to work in a dangerous environment isn't 'slavery' its just working at a crappy job for crappy pay. I think by pointing out that slavery exists in many forms, we circumvent that sort of thinking. But thats just my opinion.

Do you use the word "rape" this loosely as well?

Let's play the redefining game! Words mean what I want them to mean!

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Expanding the word cheapens it, IMO.

Slavery is an abomination from which you can't just walk away.

Feeling trapped by society is another, lesser matter entirely.

I agree that its a lesser matter. Which is what I said earlier.

Chattel Slavery we're slowly getting rid of as a society
Indentured Slavery and Sweat Shop Slavery we're not doing so well on.
The other stuff, maybe it will always be here (necessary ill as I said).

For me, it doesn't cheapen it, it brings it the whole issue into focus. Some would argue that getting paid shit to work in a dangerous environment isn't 'slavery' its just working at a crappy job for crappy pay. I think by pointing out that slavery exists in many forms, we circumvent that sort of thinking. But thats just my opinion.

Do you use the word "rape" this loosely as well?

Let's play the redefining game! Words mean what I want them to mean!

LETS RAPE WORDS!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

When I say subjugation to society, I'm not saying that it is necessarily 'bad', but it is a form of slavery.

For example: The individual would like to do X. X doesn't hurt anyone but the society that the individual lives in has decided for one reason or another that X is badwrong. This might be through government (like the oft debated drug issue) or the 'morals'/'ethics' of the society (see the way homosexuality has been/is treated by 'the people' in many societies, even if the government doesn't specifically forbid it). Things like racism or other forms of prejudice may often be a product of society, rather than government... and they can (and do) limit the freedom of the individual.

Consider a perfectly 'normal' (per society standards) white person of sex A and a perfectly 'normal' black person of sex B in 1940's America. The society they lived in controlled their freedoms.

Consider an individual in the nation of Israel, circa 300BC. They either worshiped in line with the society, or they were banished. (though in that case religion, government and society are all kinda mushed together).

Every society will have things that are 'taboo', either by law or simply because society will not accept it. Long haired hippy types, need not apply. Irish need not apply. You can't work here if you have tattoos or piercings, because some customer might get offended.

When I say that we are enslaved by society, that's what I'm talking about. Sure, we all need to contribute to society, but at the same time most (if not all) individuals are held to 'the social norm' at one level or another. Social taboos on sex, on who you can be with, on what you should believe, how you should dress etc etc are all a sort of slavery that is, in my opinion, an 'ill'. I don't think its particularly avoidable for a social animal like humans, but I recognize it as something that does control the freedoms of the individual, often for no 'good' purpose.

Well then, I guess we're all enslaved by our very nature.

No use having a problem with owning and exploiting people then.

Yep.  There's really no point in NOT having 9 year olds working in sweatshops.

And I think everyone who goes to a protest should bring signs talking about their own pet cause, instead of signs dealing with the point of the protest.

Because it's not FREEDOM if you don't impose YOUR cause into everything that is even tangentially related.

[Sir Bearington]

Expanding the word cheapens it, IMO.

Slavery is an abomination from which you can't just walk away.

Feeling trapped by society is another, lesser matter entirely.

I agree that its a lesser matter. Which is what I said earlier.

Chattel Slavery we're slowly getting rid of as a society
Indentured Slavery and Sweat Shop Slavery we're not doing so well on.
The other stuff, maybe it will always be here (necessary ill as I said).

For me, it doesn't cheapen it, it brings it the whole issue into focus. Some would argue that getting paid shit to work in a dangerous environment isn't 'slavery' its just working at a crappy job for crappy pay. I think by pointing out that slavery exists in many forms, we circumvent that sort of thinking. But thats just my opinion.

Do you use the word "rape" this loosely as well?

Let's play the redefining game! Words mean what I want them to mean!

LETS RAPE WORDS!

In england "rape" is a kind of plant/crop.

[wlfjstr]

The first thing I thought of when reading these questions was the conundrum of Thomas Jefferson.  He understood the underlying moral issues with slavery, and maybe even saw the untenable nature of that institution as a lasting economic base.  He wrote documents propounding the moral failure of slavery, but continued to practice it regardless.  How should we judge him?  As a complete hypocrite who would not implement what he felt in his heart to be true?  Or as a visionary who saw what was right and laid the framework for it to gain ascendancy, even though he couldn't realize it in his life?  There is value in both of those perspectives, and to many others, I'm sure.  The lesson I take from this, is that even making small changes, can have large effects well beyond the small world I inhabit.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The first thing I thought of when reading these questions was

...That everyone who has a different opinion of you is unbalanced, probably due to drug consumption.

DO I WIN?

[Sir Bearington]

The first thing I thought of when reading these questions was

...That everyone who has a different opinion of you is unbalanced, probably due to drug consumption.

DO I WIN?

More or less but sadly you dont have enough hand eye coordination to claim the grand prize of me caring.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The first thing I thought of when reading these questions was

...That everyone who has a different opinion of you is unbalanced, probably due to drug consumption.

DO I WIN?

More or less but sadly you dont have enough hand eye coordination to claim the grand prize of me caring.

Hey, trollbear...You really want to get in the middle of this?

Because I'm okay with it if you are.