Collected Intermittens in print?

[Placid Dingo]

If I provide content, generally, (I'm down with this project) I'll be pretty pissed is ANYONE makes money. Including Lulu. And as far as I'm concerned Lulu's profits from printing my content, is Lulu's profit from my content. So I don't think 'Its Intermittens so it's sure to be OK' is a forgone conclusion.

Lulu is making a profit off of the service of printing the book.  You could pay them to print the phone book, it would cost the same, page per page.  Note the subtle difference.

But okay, let's play that game.  Why the fuck not?  Why accomplish anything?

look, if I wrote a story and you printed it on lulu, it takes away my ability to make money from selling it myself. Cory Doctorow writes stuff under a Creative Commons non commercial license. If you print his work out at cost on Lulu I will bet you anything that his publishers response won't be ' all good yo, they're making money from printing, not writing.'

No, it fucking doesn't.  Lulu holds no copyright, and you can set your copyrights as you see fit. 

But you've made your point.  We should probably take all the intermittens down now, right?  I mean, they're right there, and anyone can read/download them, so you won't be able to sell the work in question, as it is offered for free.

So, yeah.  No more cooperative works, as it either becomes "I own your shit now", or "We can't actually do anything with anything", and there's nothing in between.

Not copyright. I mean if you sell my book for 10$ I can't sell it for $12.

Right now, you can get it for FREE.

But what the hell?  Go peddle your books.  Let us know how that works out.  Especially seeing as how you can only sell your own contributions to the Intermittens, and not the whole thing.

Urgh. This whole part of the conversation is bogged down in misunderstanding. I do take responsibility for that to some extent, I've been a bit unclear.

If somebody puts a non commercial lisence on a story, they assume theyre the only one to sell it. if I put a Cc-NC on a story, I assume it won't be sold except by me.

I brought it up cos theres CC-NC stuff in my edition. The makers will probably be ok with it. But it's not a forgone conclusion.

[LMNO]

Ok, I'm willing to make a clean break here.






STARTING OVER:

It appears that some content in Intermittens came from non-PD sources.  That content should be removed from Intermittens prior to hard copy printing.

[Placid Dingo]

Ok, so:  If we remove non-original content, we're good?

I dunno. Maybe. Maybe it'll even be ok without stripping most of the non original content. Theres some great flickr pics which could very well be taken by people ok with reuse in hard copy.

I'll address your other post in a sec.

[Placid Dingo]

It's become pretty clear that people are happy to define my opinion and intent for me.

If I provide content, generally, (I'm down with this project) I'll be pretty pissed is ANYONE makes money. Including Lulu. And as far as I'm concerned Lulu's profits from printing my content, is Lulu's profit from my content. So I don't think 'Its Intermittens so it's sure to be OK' is a forgone conclusion.

You said yourself you'd be "pissed" if we used Lulu to make hardcopy versions of Intermittens.  I'm asking you what your solution would be.


Now, your point about XCKD and whatever images you used is valid.  We may need to strip any non-original content, or not manipulated enough to consider original.  That's fair.  But that's not what you're upset about.

Ah I see.

I meant that personally as a general rule I would be upset if something I provided for non commercial use was used commercially. Not that I opposed hardcopy IM.

I said this as there seemed to be the idea of it being a forgone conclusion that anyone involved would probably be down with a hardcopy. I'm not sure it thats fair to say or not.

I said generally. I also put in brackets that I specifically was ok with this project. I may have been a bit unclear and I do apologise for that.

[Placid Dingo]

Thats my view. Sorry for snaking - I find it really unpleasant to have other people putting words in my mouth, though I'm sure there was some honest misunderstanding.

I gotta ask you:

When you say "putting words in your mouth", are you actually saying, "I'd like to have both said what I said and also NOT what I said, as convenience dictates."?

Because, if you are, you may have a bright future in politics.

I mean, after I said that I was ok with it, it kind of grated to be told repeatedly that I'm opposed to it

Or that my only motivation on PD is to fuck with you and Nigel.

Or that a thread split is about hiding my wicked ways so I can tell filthy lies.

Or that my message is ' never achieve anything.'

I mean, believe the above if you like. It certainly makes me look more interesting. But it's not really consistent with reality.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

OK, so I'm going to read between the lines here, and guess that the issue here is that Placid Dingo used some outside content in his issue of Intermittens without getting explicit consent from the copyright holders.

IF this content is Creative Commons non-commercial, then yes, legally speaking, it is OK to pay a service to print copies. The service is, as has been pointed out, for the copies, not for the content. This is not a gray area or a wild guess; Lulu is the legal equivalent of Kinkos in that respect. We should be able to host the compiled edition on Lulu, available for free download or, at the user's option, they can pay Lulu to print it out, bind it, and ship it to them. No money will exchange hands for anything BUT the printing, binding, and shipping. No profit will be made from the content. All original sources will be credited. Placid Dingo, if you failed to credit any original sources in your issue, or if any sources used were not Creative Commons or public domain, it is your responsibility to rectify that error.

Does anyone have an objection to this? Does anyone dispute this? Are there further issues anyone wants to bring up?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Also, Placid Dingo, if you are OK with this moving forward, can you please clarify that you rescind your previous statements about "being pissed" if Lulu profits from the printing, etc.?

[AFK]

I would propose/request that the editors of the various issues get a chance to proofread/review a final combined draft before it is sent off. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I think that only material under CC BY-NC-ND (Non-Commercial NoDerivs) would require additional approval for a bound copy of Intermittens. As stated previously, Lulu makes money on the 'publishing' aspect, not the content aspect, so CC doesn't apply. However, a bound copy could be considered a derivative and thus anything licensed that restricted the ability to create a derivative could be a problem. I have no idea why any editor would accept content under that particular license though.

That being said, any content in any Intermittens should have some level of approval, attribution etc including graphics etc. If not, we should get that fixed ASAP... Lulu or no Lulu. If it is all approved and under any CC license other than the ND one, then a Lulu copy should be fine.

[Placid Dingo]

OK, so I'm going to read between the lines here, and guess that the issue here is that Placid Dingo used some outside content in his issue of Intermittens without getting explicit consent from the copyright holders.

IF this content is Creative Commons non-commercial, then yes, legally speaking, it is OK to pay a service to print copies. The service is, as has been pointed out, for the copies, not for the content. This is not a gray area or a wild guess; Lulu is the legal equivalent of Kinkos in that respect. We should be able to host the compiled edition on Lulu, available for free download or, at the user's option, they can pay Lulu to print it out, bind it, and ship it to them. No money will exchange hands for anything BUT the printing, binding, and shipping. No profit will be made from the content. All original sources will be credited. Placid Dingo, if you failed to credit any original sources in your issue, or if any sources used were not Creative Commons or public domain, it is your responsibility to rectify that error.

Does anyone have an objection to this? Does anyone dispute this? Are there further issues anyone wants to bring up?

Yeah I used a few things that were NC-CC without asking.
I don't have an issue.

[Placid Dingo]

Also, Placid Dingo, if you are OK with this moving forward, can you please clarify that you rescind your previous statements about "being pissed" if Lulu profits from the printing, etc.?

...

Just in case the four or five other times I've said it have been insufficient, yes I can say I'm good with this project.

I would GENERALLY (I'M DOWN WITH THIS PROJECT) be upset if work I lisenced under an NC-CC lisence and it was used commercially. But this is a general statement and not specific to IM which I am ok with.

I'm feeling a bit uncertain about the legality of providing NC-CC content on Lulu, just because as mentioned I can't imagine authors like Doctorow having a publisher print a book when it will inevitably turn up cheaper on a POD service. But thats a gap in my knowledge and this isn't my project so dont read it as an objection.

I've just contacted the girl about if she had an issue with the use of the cover.

Also I attributed the fuck out of my sources.


I worded things    a little unclearly. But to put up with a rampaging storm of hysterical ' herp derp y u hate ambition' horse shit nstead of just asking for clarification especially since after the FIRST round of screeching I posted that I was good with this project, it's fucking shit.

If Roger wants to never ever do a project again because he's decided I'm an obstructionist bastard, well fuck off. I was treated like a total cunt in this thread for comments I made every fucking effort to clarify.

And I appreciate that LMNO and Nigel weren't trying to antagonise me. I'm just pissed at the way this thread went down.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If Roger wants to never ever do a project again because he's decided I'm an obstructionist bastard, well fuck off. I was treated like a total cunt in this thread for comments I made every fucking effort to clarify.

The simple fact of the matter is that I am an asshole that overreacts to damn near anything.

"Looks like rain."

"GODDAMMIT YOU SONSABITCHES I'LL NEVER PLAN A MAINTENANCE OUTAGE AGAIN I HATE YOU GUISE!"

"Um."

"WHAT?"

"You're a little tense today."

"NO I AM NOT FUCKING TENSE!"

[Placid Dingo]

You dont say.

But OK then.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You dont say...

I am told that sort of thing, but by people I do not find reliable.

[LMNO]

Bullhockey.  Roger is the epitome of human kindness and tact.