Author Topic: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!  (Read 98418 times)

Pope Pixie Pickle

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Ok, so Cain made a point about feminist theory and then The Squick Master tried to make a thread about it, which got ignored because he's The Squick Master.

I totally still want to discuss it, so I'm starting this thread so we can discuss it without the squicky feeling that comes from being involved in any way with BH.

Cain's point was that in feminist theory, a patriarchal society constrains men too.

I can think of one or two instances right now- Custody battles for kids seem to favour women. Even when you factor out the violent and abusive guys, a lot of the time unless the mother is seriously abusive, or seriously mentally ill, a lot of custody battles favour women.  I've heard anecdotes of single dads being given none of the considerations of single mums when it comes to flexibility and work-related situations, however I don't have any data on it (mostly because I haven't looked).

Another thing I wanted to point out is the attitudes towards tomboyish girls, and how that seems totally fine in our culture, yet when a boy shows interest in more stereotypically feminine pursuits, it's a massive taboo. For a male in the west to be told he's "like a girl" is a massive insult.  I think that homophobia comes from this fear of being feminine whilst male in our society.  This means that women have more scope to express themselves in whatever part of the gender binary spectrum than men do.



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The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2012, 01:48:57 pm »
Har!

In Arizona, custody is separate from child support (meaning deadbeat dad pays nothing, still gets to see the kids), and the amount of child support granted is GARBAGE in the first place.

In Arizona, in fact, there are NO disadvantages to being a male in a patriarchy.  None.

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Placid Dingo

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2012, 02:36:14 pm »
I don't have many thought of my own just yet but this is related.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120696816

Edit: The italics.
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« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 02:55:19 pm by Placid Dingo »
If sheep entrails could in any way be related to the weather, i.e. sheep trails only originate where it rains, then you could use it as an accurate model for discerning what the weathers going to be like. Either, sheep shit makes it rain, or raining makes sheep shit. Sheep don't shit "randomly" sheep shit after they eat, it doesn't rain "randomly" it rains after water collects in the atmosphere.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2012, 02:45:12 pm »
They only other thing that comes to mind is that in a similar way that young female minds are warped to fit a patriarchal society's view of them as lesser creatures, young male minds are warped to treat them as such; and in developmental social environments where peer pressure and conformity tends to play a large part, a young male might suffer if they treat a female as an equal.

Such an environment also appeals to a pack dominance/power mentality, and enforces the idea of the "other" as a negative -- which could establish a foundation of xenophobia in general for males.


But let me say that these pale in comparison to the damage done to females.

Faust

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 03:10:32 pm »
There is a stigma on guys to be with a certain type of girl.

I've known plenty of guys who just couldn't fathom guys going out with punk/goth/metal girls.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 03:34:26 pm »
Please don't rely on anecdotal data regarding custody issues. In the US, custody is overall overwhelmingly awarded to the mothers, but when you filter it to include only the cases where the father tried to get custody, it is overwhelmingly awarded to the fathers.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Faust

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 03:37:48 pm »
Please don't rely on anecdotal data regarding custody issues. In the US, custody is overall overwhelmingly awarded to the mothers, but when you filter it to include only the cases where the father tried to get custody, it is overwhelmingly awarded to the fathers.

Do you have the birth cert law, In Ireland a woman doesn't have to name the father on the birth cert. This automatically disqualifies him from any rights whatsoever. I'm fairly certain the EU is forcing us to get that law but it seemed pretty mad to me.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2012, 03:39:11 pm »
I would say that something Alty mentioned, albeit not in this context, that is a symptom of how patriarchy oppresses males, is that if a man falls or appears to fall outside of his expected role in patriarchy, ie. "too feminine", he is in danger of being taunted, ostracised, or assaulted.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2012, 03:44:45 pm »
Please don't rely on anecdotal data regarding custody issues. In the US, custody is overall overwhelmingly awarded to the mothers, but when you filter it to include only the cases where the father tried to get custody, it is overwhelmingly awarded to the fathers.

Do you have the birth cert law, In Ireland a woman doesn't have to name the father on the birth cert. This automatically disqualifies him from any rights whatsoever. I'm fairly certain the EU is forcing us to get that law but it seemed pretty mad to me.

Likewise is true in the US; however, a man may file for paternity at any time, and it's not an expensive process. I believe that in most states here, if the father is in the birth center at the time of birth and claims paternity, his name will be placed on the birth record.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


Faust

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2012, 03:47:33 pm »
Please don't rely on anecdotal data regarding custody issues. In the US, custody is overall overwhelmingly awarded to the mothers, but when you filter it to include only the cases where the father tried to get custody, it is overwhelmingly awarded to the fathers.

Do you have the birth cert law, In Ireland a woman doesn't have to name the father on the birth cert. This automatically disqualifies him from any rights whatsoever. I'm fairly certain the EU is forcing us to get that law but it seemed pretty mad to me.

Likewise is true in the US; however, a man may file for paternity at any time, and it's not an expensive process. I believe that in most states here, if the father is in the birth center at the time of birth and claims paternity, his name will be placed on the birth record.

Here you need to have the name on the birth cert to file for paternity, visitation, etc. But I wen't looking and it seems this is a human rights violation according to the EU so it being revised as fast as possible.
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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 03:53:47 pm »
Please don't rely on anecdotal data regarding custody issues. In the US, custody is overall overwhelmingly awarded to the mothers, but when you filter it to include only the cases where the father tried to get custody, it is overwhelmingly awarded to the fathers.

Do you have the birth cert law, In Ireland a woman doesn't have to name the father on the birth cert. This automatically disqualifies him from any rights whatsoever. I'm fairly certain the EU is forcing us to get that law but it seemed pretty mad to me.

Likewise is true in the US; however, a man may file for paternity at any time, and it's not an expensive process. I believe that in most states here, if the father is in the birth center at the time of birth and claims paternity, his name will be placed on the birth record.

Here you need to have the name on the birth cert to file for paternity, visitation, etc. But I wen't looking and it seems this is a human rights violation according to the EU so it being revised as fast as possible.

Wow, yeah, that's totally bullshit and I'm glad it's being rectified.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 04:28:11 pm »
I would say that something Alty mentioned, albeit not in this context, that is a symptom of how patriarchy oppresses males, is that if a man falls or appears to fall outside of his expected role in patriarchy, ie. "too feminine", he is in danger of being taunted, ostracised, or assaulted.

That's when it's time to choke a motherfucker.

I once watched some yahoo decide that it would be a good idea to mock/harrass 3 transvestites on the street.  It wasn't pretty.

In any case, the man in question has one option that women don't have...IE, he can put on an act, and drop right off the radar.  Not saying that he should ever HAVE to, just that he has a method closed to women.

I don't agree that patriarchies are any real burden on men, at least on the whole.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 05:07:12 pm »
Look, being a man in a man's world is really simple, if you know The Rules.

Quote from: Rashneesh Uday Salizor
Among my people, you would be called a Sleep Talker, because you say to be blind to the nature world. To have the boner is a man way to be.  All the person have the poop, and it is good to have the poop. Do you not have the poop?  I think maybe so not.  It tell many about you, that you maybe so not have the good poop.  The poop have the spirit and the power in it.  You talk in child way, to have fears of the poop power spirit.  Sing to the poop power spirit to have the good poop and not fear of that. I will sing for you to have the good poop.  Then you can have the power and the life in the man way.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 05:44:15 pm »
I would say that something Alty mentioned, albeit not in this context, that is a symptom of how patriarchy oppresses males, is that if a man falls or appears to fall outside of his expected role in patriarchy, ie. "too feminine", he is in danger of being taunted, ostracised, or assaulted.

That's when it's time to choke a motherfucker.

I once watched some yahoo decide that it would be a good idea to mock/harrass 3 transvestites on the street.  It wasn't pretty.

In any case, the man in question has one option that women don't have...IE, he can put on an act, and drop right off the radar.  Not saying that he should ever HAVE to, just that he has a method closed to women.

I don't agree that patriarchies are any real burden on men, at least on the whole.

Some men can do this. I can run right along those kind of gender lines. Some men can't. There have been, and always will be, those who cannot confine of warp themselves to gender roles. There are men who are physically more likely to pass as a straight female than they ever could as any kind of male, as far as prescribed gender roles go. The same goes for some women who express themselves as male. Some body types and mannerisms can't be hidden. And these people were once completely cast out of society because they could not fit the mold.
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Salty

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Re: Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 05:48:21 pm »
Also, I would argue that due to an ever constant fear or rape or assault present in many women, it makes it difficult for men to just be people around women, at times. I've started to notice recently just how many women refuse to make eye contact while walking, or even biking in public. This isn't so much harm to men in our society as much as its a shame. For example: I am totally fucking harmless. I'm still a pacifist at heart. And yet I evoke this same reaction because I am a guy. Again, this is less a tragedy and more a damned shame that women have to live in such fear without the ability to tell who is harmless and who is not.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.