Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

I find I keep typing thoughts then not posting them because its such a brain twister for me...

When the rock hits you, holler.

I'm not worried about looking like a chauvanist (sp?), because everyone here knows me.  I did put disclaimers on a few of my twistier posts (which gained me the "wrath" of CW, who would have complained equally as much if I hadn't  ), but in general, I'm gonna just post my thoughts and take my beatings, because that's the only way a guy like me can figure shit out.

Oh I don't mind that bit... its usually been 'Thought enters... gets typed... new thought enters... cancels out old thought... post delete'

Though, I do think this disucssion highlights the "Never Whistle While YOu're Pissing" theme that any label/box/role is a damnation because its defining what the individual is and is not.

In this case, its defining men as anal-territorial, tough guys who are dominant and defining women as subservient to the males. Both groups are getting screwed over.  I still think women are getting the worst of it, since they are either subservient or aberrant, whereas guys can at least jam themselves into the stereotypical role and get by (notwithstanding whatever psychological damage that is doing to them). 

[Juana]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

NIGEL IS STEALING MY THOUGHTS!  )

Better check your soul while you're at it.  It's still close to lunch time.

[Juana]

I never said I agreed with the idea that crying is a sign of weakness.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

That means it's accomplishing something.

I like it when threads make me THINK. Good threads lately, guys. F'reals.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

I think it would depend on the situation... If the old Dead Rev, for examples treats boys and girls equally on the issue of crying, thats teaching them to be tough in a tough world... if on the other hand, the boy is scolded while the girl is coddled, thats something more closely linked to what we're discussing, I think.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

Yeah, but when you're talking about patriarchy, you're talking about society, which means you have to view it under a broader umbrella than individual actions, and look at it from the perspective of social expectations/norms.

[Salty]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

Eh, to a point. It's men asserting certain qualities that place them in a perceived higher status bracket, not necessarily to put women down specifically. Sometimes it's used by men to raise their status above women in an oppressive way, or to ensure the status quo where that kind of oppression is rampant. But it is also used to raise in status in contest with other men because...well, that's what apes do. It can be more or less refined, and it can take very different shapes.

Certainly it can be obnoxious, out-dated, crude. But that has more to do with Those Kind of People than qualities inherent in promoting one's masculinity.

Much in the same vein: Women can put on make-up for a variety of reasons (many of which involve attracting a mate), but with varying degrees of need and intensity. Some women cannot live without make-up (sign of Patriarchy?) or wear only a little because it makes them feel nice (?).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I never said I agreed with the idea that crying is a sign of weakness.

Oh, I know.  I view it as a sign that something is VERY wrong, which is why I taught my son and my daughter that crying is for when crying is appropriate. 

I wouldn't think that you would assume it's a sign of weakness.  I respect your opinion in a way that I would have (a few years back) found very difficult to do with someone half my age.  I wouldn't respect your opinion as much if you held such weird beliefs as "crying is weak".  You might be a Fresno weirdo and a cannibal, but you've always had your shit in one bag...Even if you view me as a bit of a dumbass.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

I think it would depend on the situation... If the old Dead Rev, for examples treats boys and girls equally on the issue of crying, thats teaching them to be tough in a tough world... if on the other hand, the boy is scolded while the girl is coddled, thats something more closely linked to what we're discussing, I think.

More like, treating them differently reinforces the status quo, while treating them equally undermines it. On a very small scale.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

Yeah, but when you're talking about patriarchy, you're talking about society, which means you have to view it under a broader umbrella than individual actions, and look at it from the perspective of social expectations/norms.

Oh, no argument at all.  I'm just saying that teaching kids moderation in emotional expression isn't necessarily a gender-based thing.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

I think it would depend on the situation... If the old Dead Rev, for examples treats boys and girls equally on the issue of crying, thats teaching them to be tough in a tough world... if on the other hand, the boy is scolded while the girl is coddled, thats something more closely linked to what we're discussing, I think.

More like, treating them differently reinforces the status quo, while treating them equally undermines it. On a very small scale.

It's the only scale I've got.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

That's more gender role sereotyping, which isn't necessarily "patriarchy", but definitely exploited by the patriarchy.

Maybe.  I taught both of my kids that crying is reserved for occasions worth crying over.

Skinned knee?  Quit it.
Broken leg?  Go ahead.

You can't go out with your friends tonight?  Deal with it.
Death in the family?  Go ahead and cry.

Quit it/deal with it applied equally is great.

Yelling at a preschooler like a drill instructor when you would hug his sister for the same behavior, not so much.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

I think it would depend on the situation... If the old Dead Rev, for examples treats boys and girls equally on the issue of crying, thats teaching them to be tough in a tough world... if on the other hand, the boy is scolded while the girl is coddled, thats something more closely linked to what we're discussing, I think.

It's not just about being "tough", but also about teaching them nuance in how they express themselves.

If all you do is cry when things don't go your way, how will people be able to tell when something is REALLY wrong?

Crying is appropriate for extreme emotion (anger, grief, even happiness, etc) or serious injury, IMO.