Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Freeky]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

Yeah, but when you're talking about patriarchy, you're talking about society, which means you have to view it under a broader umbrella than individual actions, and look at it from the perspective of social expectations/norms.

Oh, no argument at all.  I'm just saying that teaching kids moderation in emotional expression isn't necessarily a gender-based thing.

I personally have found (and this is just from my point of view, mind) that being told to SHUT UP when crying ends up equating to NOBODY GIVES A GOOD GOD DAMN, SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GO AWAY.  Whether that's the real message a person wants to send is another matter entirely. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

Yeah, but when you're talking about patriarchy, you're talking about society, which means you have to view it under a broader umbrella than individual actions, and look at it from the perspective of social expectations/norms.

Oh, no argument at all.  I'm just saying that teaching kids moderation in emotional expression isn't necessarily a gender-based thing.

I personally have found (and this is just from my point of view, mind) that being told to SHUT UP when crying ends up equating to NOBODY GIVES A GOOD GOD DAMN, SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GO AWAY.  Whether that's the real message a person wants to send is another matter entirely.

Yeah, well, we were talking about 4 year olds.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

You know, I think I'm done here.

[Freeky]

I'm not attacking you, Roger.  I'm sorry if it came out that way.

[Freeky]

I've been enjoying this conversation immensely, because I have to THINK about it (hence some of the wandering and weird questions), because it's something I haven't ever considered before (ie, the effect on men).

Yes, I never thought about it much. I really don't have anything but personal thoughts so far.

I do want to puke when I see some little kid crying and people start yelling at him to "man up". He's FOUR, FFS. I'm not sure how much the macho thing has to do with the patriarchy, though.

Other than that, I don't have much.

Machismo has everything to do with patriarchy. It's obnoxious, showy masculinity that imposes its will on everyone around it, most particularly females.

And related to screeching at a crying four year old, crying is a sign of weakness, yes? Men aren't supposed to be weak. Women, for whom crying is...expected? are.

Or aren't, as the case may be (see my response to the same post).

Yeah, but when you're talking about patriarchy, you're talking about society, which means you have to view it under a broader umbrella than individual actions, and look at it from the perspective of social expectations/norms.

Oh, no argument at all.  I'm just saying that teaching kids moderation in emotional expression isn't necessarily a gender-based thing.

I personally have found (and this is just from my point of view, mind) that being told to SHUT UP when crying ends up equating to NOBODY GIVES A GOOD GOD DAMN, SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GO AWAY.  Whether that's the real message a person wants to send is another matter entirely.

Yeah, well, we were talking about 4 year olds.

I was also talking about that, since it's been a recurring theme in my life since I was very small, which stopped after I moved out, and why I do not like to tell the monkey to stop crying when he is frustrated or upset, because emotions are wacky things for some people.

Have I mentioned I suck at explaining myself properly?  Because I do. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

S'ok.  I don't like when people cry.  It makes me uncomfortable, and leads me to want to leave the room, or the house.

So I read you wrong.

[Freeky]

Yes.  That's your prerogative to not like it when people cry, and I don't blame you in the least. 




To further the discussion, I agree that while men don't lose as much as women do in the grand scheme of things, I think as people they get a pretty raw deal.  They have to be just so, fit in this box, or -gasp- LOSE YOUR MAN CARD!  If you MUST get touchy-feely, you may only indulge in a short, furtive side hug (btw FUCK YUO ALTY), after which you have to make a rape or sexist joke lol, or talk about boobs or sports or whatever it is you men talk about.  You can't show emotion, cuz that's actin' like a pussy, dawg.  You got worries?  Shit, I don't wanna hear about worries you have about the future!  Talk about tits and ass instead.  You got some deep thoughts on feminism, or what you find to be beautiful in the world, or maybe want to bounce some poetry off me?  FUCKIN' FAG! 

Honestly, I'm running through all the things that guys are supposed to like to do, and I can only come up with some of the most shallow, vile crap that is untrue, I hope.  I mean, like Nigel said upthread, that can't be good for their spirituality or humanity.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Yanno, I really like having PeeDee around on my Journey Into Feminism. I get to bring new ideas to me back here, and speak to you guys about it, which I think helps me think about it through the PeeDee and Discordian filter, and TFYS.

It also seems that you 'orrible lot enjoy the discussions too, which is cool and restores a little optimism to my misanthropic self.

I'll read back though the thread tomorrow after I'm done with my volunteering, and make some observations and replies, as this thread went nuts when I was out at my D&D game.

I love you spags.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yanno, I really like having PeeDee around on my Journey Into Feminism. I get to bring new ideas to me back here, and speak to you guys about it, which I think helps me think about it through the PeeDee and Discordian filter, and TFYS.

It also seems that you 'orrible lot enjoy the discussions too, which is cool and restores a little optimism to my misanthropic self.

I'll read back though the thread tomorrow after I'm done with my volunteering, and make some observations and replies, as this thread went nuts when I was out at my D&D game.

I love you spags.

It's been a fun thread.

One thing to remember:  Uniforms are sneaky things.  It's easy to become the values, rather than have the values, if you catch my drift.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Yanno, I really like having PeeDee around on my Journey Into Feminism. I get to bring new ideas to me back here, and speak to you guys about it, which I think helps me think about it through the PeeDee and Discordian filter, and TFYS.

It also seems that you 'orrible lot enjoy the discussions too, which is cool and restores a little optimism to my misanthropic self.

I'll read back though the thread tomorrow after I'm done with my volunteering, and make some observations and replies, as this thread went nuts when I was out at my D&D game.

I love you spags.

It's been a fun thread.

One thing to remember:  Uniforms are sneaky things.  It's easy to become the values, rather than have the values, if you catch my drift.

Yea, that's why I talk this stuff over with you spags, so I don't become the uniform.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yanno, I really like having PeeDee around on my Journey Into Feminism. I get to bring new ideas to me back here, and speak to you guys about it, which I think helps me think about it through the PeeDee and Discordian filter, and TFYS.

It also seems that you 'orrible lot enjoy the discussions too, which is cool and restores a little optimism to my misanthropic self.

I'll read back though the thread tomorrow after I'm done with my volunteering, and make some observations and replies, as this thread went nuts when I was out at my D&D game.

I love you spags.

It's been a fun thread.

One thing to remember:  Uniforms are sneaky things.  It's easy to become the values, rather than have the values, if you catch my drift.

Yea, that's why I talk this stuff over with you spags, so I don't become the uniform.

That never hurts.  The alternative can be seen at capitol grilling (shudder) where everyone becomes their party, no matter how silly or Orwellian things get.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I second Alty regarding wife number two; gender roles are set by men (and the "woman stays at home" is relatively recent and, random historical fact of the day, courtesy of the Dutch).

The patriarchy is what stereotypes men as, basically, cavemen incapable of controlling themselves, who think exclusively with their dicks (which, coincidely links into rape culture, since women/females are supposed to know this and take care if ourselves accordingly).
Feminism holds you to be capable of being more than that.

Seriously?  In an example that gives two women, one who bucked the gender stereotype and was successful, the other who chose to embrace the stereotype, you're still going to absolve Wife#2 of any blame for the harm she was doing her family, and continue to blame the patriarchy?  OMG, what does a woman have to do to get credit for her own fuckups?

Dude, chill. No one is attacking you. *Her* expectation that househusband get a job and shit is the result of patriarchal expectations and gender roles. Is it her fault for not putting the well-being of the first househusband above her expectation? Yes. She should see that it works better for them like this. Was it her fault for preventing her own husband from nuturing his kids? Yes. And it's grossly unfair for her to do so. But, again, those expectations of hers resulted from traditional, patriarchal gender roles.

But she should be able to rise above the expectations of that patriarchy.  At some point, she has to stop sitting on her ass waiting to be given responsbility over her own life, and take it, instead. 
I'm a strong woman who thinks for herself.  The patriarchy might be to blame for how hard I have to struggle to be me, but it's not to blame if I give up.  And it's not to blame if I choose to embrace it instead.
And if one woman can rise above the patriarchy, it's not the patriarchy's fault if other women believe the lies they're told.

You know, I said not thirty seconds ago that I wanted to catch up with this thread so I didn't repeat anything, but I think if anyone has pointed this out, it should be underscored:  You are being a fucking bitch.  No, you're being a goddamn cunt.  Twatwaffle.  Douchebitch.  Take your pick, and if you don't like these, I have others in mind that are far more offensive. 

Who the fuck are you to tell a woman who is a housewife (which, I might add, is an incredibly hard job to do, and you don't get fucking paid for it, and time off means things fall to shit) that they are being a lazy fucking scumbag who is letting the patriarchy tell them what to do?  Who the fuck are you to tell them that they have to go out and get a job when they are a lot more happy at home, raising children and keeping shit together?  I agree that she did her husband a disservice by forcing him into a gender role of breadwinner only no nurturing allowed, but you're being an utter shitbag about this.

A brainwashed shitbag.

This whole idea that a STRONG, INDEPENDENT woman HAS TO work outside the home comes from people who want to profit off your labor. Fuck, when my kids were babies I went on WELFARE for awhile. On PURPOSE. Because I didn't want them SMACKED AROUND AND CORNHOLED BEFORE THEY COULD EVEN TALK AND TELL ANYBODY. And FUCK what anybody thought about that.

CW, go watch some more That Girl and Mary Tyler Moore reruns. Tha FUCK. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Personally, I like the word "feminist" because the people I like know what it means, and the people I don't like immediately start screaming about "ball-busting, domineering bitches", and then they spend the rest of the day all raged-out.

Which, you know, gives me a warm feeling in my bits.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

http://www.upworthy.com/a-public-service-announcement-on-behalf-of-all-white-dudes?g=2&c=bl3

[Phox]

http://www.upworthy.com/a-public-service-announcement-on-behalf-of-all-white-dudes?g=2&c=bl3