Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Pussy for example has an interesting etymology. The usage for female genitals likely comes from Norse/Germanic words related to pouch/purse. The usage for wimpy/weak guy comes from an older English usage which means pampered/fat/spoiled (like pursy).

Pussy as a term from women dates back to the 15th century in the vlugar usage and has its origins in Germanic/Norse(we think). Pussy as a vulger term for men, has similarly old usage but comes from Latin/French roots.

Can I get some citation on that?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, we need to invent a new catalog of swear words. Resolved, then.

Yup. And I'll use the banned list almost exclusively, in the hope that it will offend exactly the kind of twats* that take the hump over that kind of thing.


* another word derived from the cunt-section of the female form and thus an direct attack on femininity in general

Why?  And what are that "kind of twats", exactly, anyway?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I wasn't around back in the day when the word originated so I couldn't really comment. Back when I learned to use it, it wasn't til years later, when I learned about the concept of a vagina, that I found out that it could be used to refer to that particular new fangled invention as well.

"Pussy" was originally to do with cats and kittens, if memory serves. You aint a big, rough, tough macho beast, you're a little baby kitteh cat makes more sense than you're a female reproductive organ.

So you're one of those people who gets a bug in their (gender neutral) ass cos someone says pussy, right? That's a label, it's a uniform. It's angry, millitant, "I'm being oppressed" crusader, deliberately alienating those who are on their side because they're not on their side enough. Good luck with insisting that everyone in the world see things your (officially sanctioned) way and act in a manner laid down in the guidelines with regards what to think, say and do. It's been tried before, numerous times but, luckily for the rest of us, good generally triumphs.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Your OOK and your privilege is showing again, P3nt. 

I don't think p3nt is the kind of IRL person who would be one of my friends, honestly. Not that he's a bad guy, I just see him as more of the outdoorsy macho type than I ever have a desire to be near.

HOWEVER

That he engages in traditionally "male" behavior, including activities, hobbies, speech or whatever else is not necessarily him being a monkey or engaging in "privilege." I don't think I've ever seen p3nt be an outright chauvinist here, and in fact he has shown himself to have more depth of character than I've ever seen any chauvinist to have. That alone, in my opinion, absolves him in this conversation of engaging in "privilege." What I see here is that he is being accused of reverting to non-bipedal behavior just because his behavior is abrasive to you.

What I find fascinating about this thread is that, over and over again, women try to explain to men what the elements of our culture that reflect patriarchy and misogyny look like, and over and over again, men argue with us and tell us why we're wrong. 

[Freeky]

That.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"Pussy" was originally to do with cats and kittens, if memory serves. You aint a big, rough, tough macho beast, you're a little baby kitteh cat makes more sense than you're a female reproductive organ.

Actually I mentioned the origin a few posts back.

Pussy as in the female reproductive organ comes from Saxon/Norse roots relating to pocket and vulva.
Pussy as in "Dude, you're a pussy" comes from Latin/Old French origins and is either a corruption of the word "pursy" (or pursy is a corruption of pussy), which means to be fat and short of breath, pampered etc. So calling a guy a pussy means he is weak... not a female body part.

There doesn't appear to actually be a connection with the pussy as in cat.

They have completely separate roots.

You can't use yourself as a citation, dude.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I just found Vex's post funny for the same reason I found the great Chicago debate about replacing "manhole" with "personhole" funny, back in 1997.

In any case, swearing is a personal thing.  It's like prayer, in some ways.  Provided that it isn't directed at a person, I fail to see what the problem is.  Even if it IS directed at a person, if it is used as a pronoun instead of a slam on perceived traits, I still don't see a problem.

Examples:

1.  This clutch plate is being a cunt.  <--- I do it all the time.

2.  That dickhole over there is the guy with whom you need to speak.  <--- no problem.

3.  You drive like a girl.  <--- Not good.

I thought V3x's joke was funny, on multiple levels, one of which being that it's absurd to the point of humor to imagine a culture in which popular sayings based on negative gender stereotypes are minimized or nonexistent.

That said, I think the point of the conversation is not that the people using these terms have sexist or misogynistic intentions, but rather that the culture which has produced them is rooted in patriarchy and devalues women and all things female. A culture which routinely and consistently associates negativity with femaleness in its language is a sexist culture. We all exist within it. I'm not saying changing the words we use in the answer, because the language will change when the culture changes. But being aware of it can really change your perspective.

There goes Nigel slicing through the bullshit again. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I just found Vex's post funny for the same reason I found the great Chicago debate about replacing "manhole" with "personhole" funny, back in 1997.

In any case, swearing is a personal thing.  It's like prayer, in some ways.  Provided that it isn't directed at a person, I fail to see what the problem is.  Even if it IS directed at a person, if it is used as a pronoun instead of a slam on perceived traits, I still don't see a problem.

Examples:

1.  This clutch plate is being a cunt.  <--- I do it all the time.

2.  That dickhole over there is the guy with whom you need to speak.  <--- no problem.

3.  You drive like a girl.  <--- Not good.

I thought V3x's joke was funny, on multiple levels, one of which being that it's absurd to the point of humor to imagine a culture in which popular sayings based on negative gender stereotypes are minimized or nonexistent.

That said, I think the point of the conversation is not that the people using these terms have sexist or misogynistic intentions, but rather that the culture which has produced them is rooted in patriarchy and devalues women and all things female. A culture which routinely and consistently associates negativity with femaleness in its language is a sexist culture. We all exist within it. I'm not saying changing the words we use in the answer, because the language will change when the culture changes. But being aware of it can really change your perspective.

I think that is a fantastic observation, Nigel.

Thanks Rat! 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I just found Vex's post funny for the same reason I found the great Chicago debate about replacing "manhole" with "personhole" funny, back in 1997.

In any case, swearing is a personal thing.  It's like prayer, in some ways.  Provided that it isn't directed at a person, I fail to see what the problem is.  Even if it IS directed at a person, if it is used as a pronoun instead of a slam on perceived traits, I still don't see a problem.

Examples:

1.  This clutch plate is being a cunt.  <--- I do it all the time.

2.  That dickhole over there is the guy with whom you need to speak.  <--- no problem.

3.  You drive like a girl.  <--- Not good.

I thought V3x's joke was funny, on multiple levels, one of which being that it's absurd to the point of humor to imagine a culture in which popular sayings based on negative gender stereotypes are minimized or nonexistent.

That said, I think the point of the conversation is not that the people using these terms have sexist or misogynistic intentions, but rather that the culture which has produced them is rooted in patriarchy and devalues women and all things female. A culture which routinely and consistently associates negativity with femaleness in its language is a sexist culture. We all exist within it. I'm not saying changing the words we use in the answer, because the language will change when the culture changes. But being aware of it can really change your perspective.

There goes Nigel slicing through the bullshit again. 

Thanks! 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No, it's privilege. You're a man who is unwilling to change his swearwords to stop insulting women and females because it's inconvenient.

Well, there's that.   

I can't think of a decent counterargument, so I'm gonna have to say that I was - as I said was possible - in the wrong.

And as far as theism/atheism goes, I think my reputation here is solid on the subject.  I don't understand why I would be lumped in with some asshole who fired you for atheism (I was fired once for not being a theist or enough of a theist by my boss's standards).

I should really learn to read the whole thread before replying. 

Then again, I never know if I'm going to get to read the whole thing, so it's probably better that I just keep on doing it this way.

I have spent a lifetime operating under the theory "GO BATSHIT FIRST, YOU CAN ALWAYS REASON LATER", so I can hardly gripe when someone else does it.

[The Johnny]

Your OOK and your privilege is showing again, P3nt. 

I don't think p3nt is the kind of IRL person who would be one of my friends, honestly. Not that he's a bad guy, I just see him as more of the outdoorsy macho type than I ever have a desire to be near.

HOWEVER

That he engages in traditionally "male" behavior, including activities, hobbies, speech or whatever else is not necessarily him being a monkey or engaging in "privilege." I don't think I've ever seen p3nt be an outright chauvinist here, and in fact he has shown himself to have more depth of character than I've ever seen any chauvinist to have. That alone, in my opinion, absolves him in this conversation of engaging in "privilege." What I see here is that he is being accused of reverting to non-bipedal behavior just because his behavior is abrasive to you.

What I find fascinating about this thread is that, over and over again, women try to explain to men what the elements of our culture that reflect patriarchy and misogyny look like, and over and over again, men argue with us and tell us why we're wrong. 

Well, at least i have learned that "harpy" is a bad insult 

I think a problem in this thread is a lot of counter-examples go like "BUT WHEN I SAY IT, IT DOESNT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK", which im starting to think is just a rationalization to not examine one's own behaviour and do you know, actual insight.

"I always call my girlfriend a bitch, but she knows, and i know, that im just playing, im just FUNNY like that"

I think Rat is going in the right direction by digging up etymologies, which has value, but it does need to be contrasted with current usage.

[Juana]

I think a problem in this thread is a lot of counter-examples go like "BUT WHEN I SAY IT, IT DOESNT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK", which im starting to think is just a rationalization to not examine one's own behaviour and do you know, actual insight.

"I always call my girlfriend a bitch, but she knows, and i know, that im just playing, im just FUNNY like that"

I think Rat is going in the right direction by digging up etymologies, which has value, but it does need to be contrasted with current usage.

I knew I liked you, Joh.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yeah.  Let's try this out.


"YOU'RE A CUNT!"

"What did you say?"

"Well, in ancient Sanskrit, that meant 'apple turnover', so don't get all torqued up."

*thump, punch, slash, flense*

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Your OOK and your privilege is showing again, P3nt. 

I don't think p3nt is the kind of IRL person who would be one of my friends, honestly. Not that he's a bad guy, I just see him as more of the outdoorsy macho type than I ever have a desire to be near.

HOWEVER

That he engages in traditionally "male" behavior, including activities, hobbies, speech or whatever else is not necessarily him being a monkey or engaging in "privilege." I don't think I've ever seen p3nt be an outright chauvinist here, and in fact he has shown himself to have more depth of character than I've ever seen any chauvinist to have. That alone, in my opinion, absolves him in this conversation of engaging in "privilege." What I see here is that he is being accused of reverting to non-bipedal behavior just because his behavior is abrasive to you.

What I find fascinating about this thread is that, over and over again, women try to explain to men what the elements of our culture that reflect patriarchy and misogyny look like, and over and over again, men argue with us and tell us why we're wrong. 

Well, at least i have learned that "harpy" is a bad insult 

I think a problem in this thread is a lot of counter-examples go like "BUT WHEN I SAY IT, IT DOESNT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK", which im starting to think is just a rationalization to not examine one's own behaviour and do you know, actual insight.

"I always call my girlfriend a bitch, but she knows, and i know, that im just playing, im just FUNNY like that"

I think Rat is going in the right direction by digging up etymologies, which has value, but it does need to be contrasted with current usage.

MOTORCYCLE!

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Pussy for example has an interesting etymology. The usage for female genitals likely comes from Norse/Germanic words related to pouch/purse. The usage for wimpy/weak guy comes from an older English usage which means pampered/fat/spoiled (like pursy).

Pussy as a term from women dates back to the 15th century in the vlugar usage and has its origins in Germanic/Norse(we think). Pussy as a vulger term for men, has similarly old usage but comes from Latin/French roots.

Can I get some citation on that?

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913 + 1828):

Pussy (?), n. [Dim. of puss.]

1. A pet name for a cat; also, an endearing name for a girl.


Pus"sy (?), a. See Pursy. [Colloq. or Low]

Pur"sy (?), a. [OF. pourcif, poulsif, poussif, fr. pousser to push, thrust, heave, OF. also poulser: cf. F. pousse the heaves, asthma. See Push.] Fat and short-breathed; fat, short, and thick; swelled with pampering; as, pursy insolence. Shak.

Pursy important he sat him down. Sir W. Scot.

According to the dictionary in 1913, "Pussy" in reference to a girl was endearing and Pussy in reference to a vulgar slur was a variation on Pursy.

http://machaut.uchicago.edu/classic

The online etymology dictionary states that pussy was a term of endearment for women ("What do you think, pussy?" said her father to Eva. [Harriet Beecher Stowe, "Uncle Tom's Cabin," 1852]). Apparently it was also used as a reference to cats, rabbits and other soft furry things. Ala pussy willow.

So... it almost seems as though pussy isn't particularly a word developed my a misogynistic society, but rather a somewhat recent conflation of two separate definitions for the same word.

Something along the lines of:
"It means female"
"It means weak"
"Therefore... It means females are weak."

Or at least that's what this would seem to suggest. Also, I'm mostly looking at this from a "where did it come from" perspective, not a "should you say it" perspective.