Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Jesus christ, it's not a bigoted term any more than trans* is. It's a specialized word, that's all. Did I use it in a way that can be construed as bigoted? I suppose so, if you're not willing to see that it's about criticizing IDEAS rather than sex or gender (I really do not want to have to start this over again; I've explained it like twice already). Are there people who do use it like that and paint a broad brush over all cis men? Absolutely. I used it poorly to describe what Nigel called the 'tragedy of the oppressor', that's all.

I don't understand its value at all... I don't care if people want to use it, but it seems like a pretty useless label.

"trans" = your inside genetics and outside genetics don't match
"homosexual' = your sexual preference is for the same sex
"cis" = your inside genetics and outside genetics match and your sexual preference is for the opposite sex.

err... the first two I get, the third seems silly to me.

1. "Inside genetics and outside genetics" makes no fucking sense. It might be accurate to describe "Cis" as "your self-concept and social presentation matches the gender identity society expects from you based on your sex".

2. It is not tied to sexual preference. Cis people can be straight or gay. It refers only to the relationship of social gender expression with biological sex.

3. I kind of hate it too, but I recognize its usefulness at the same time it makes me cringe for providing one more word to enable people to pigeonhole something that probably is better not being pigeonholed.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So looking some more, I see how you could be a male/female who identifies as being a male/female but is homosexual. However, I still don't see any value in it. Its a label saying your inside and outside genetics match. Why make that into a label?

PLEASE STOP SAYING THAT.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've known some pretty misogynist gay men that weren't cis at all.

I just wanted to pick this out because I don't understand it. They were gay men who did not identify as men? Or do you mean they were born as women but identify as gay men, and are misogynistic? It's the "not cis at all" part that's throwing me.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm just against the politics of division.  There are people out there that COUNT on us being divided.

Does that make me "privileged"? 

So I'm privileged.

So am I. Both against that division and privileged. Choosing to just see people as people is much easier when you aren't given daily reminders that you are one of "those people".

Attacking the concept of cisgenderism feels to me like telling blacks that "there ain't no 'whitey' we're all just people" as if THEY are responsible for the distinction being made.

He makes a valid point here, IMO.

[Signora Pæsior]

"I am just trying to be a better person."

I actually read this as genuine at first. My bad.
And then Roger was a successful troll.

Then Roger didn't take you seriously when you went off the fucking deep end.

Or words to that effect.

Well, I'm off to bed, to dream up more ways to keep a brother down.  Paes, be prepared to be consumed with Holy Wrath^TM at my outrageous acts of oppression on this very board, come tomorrow.  That way, you won't even notice when the people who are actually oppressing you come down on you like a ten ton sack of pigshit.

Way to go.

In fairness, no one's oppressing Paes. He's a straight white cis guy, bless him.

People say things like this when they buy into the idea of patriarchy, rather than kyriarchy.

It probably helps if you've turned a blind eye to systemic banking corruption throughout the globe, the increasingly punitive prison culture right in your own back yard, and living in a country that has some of the worst inequality in the world.

Those all are things that white cis guys are immune from, see.

The part where I said that my feminism is intersectional? Kind of assumes I "buy into" kyriarchy, but I'm sorry if I didn't specify that while hashing out replies on my phone

I'd also point out that the people who benefit the most from systemic banking corruption, our fucked-up prison culture (over half the prison population is Māori despite making up less than 15% of the total population), and income inequality (at the last census the mean income of Māori was 73.2% of that of non-Māori; women earn 2/5 of gross earnings) are upper-class white cis guys. Or perhaps it would be fairer to say that the system which currently allows this to happen was set up and is primarily run/controlled by white cis guys.

Which is not to say that Paes, personally, is not affected by living in a fucked-up system. Of course he is. We all are, because (whoo title reference) patriarchy/kyriarchy hurts men too.

And finally, I was being fairly tongue-in-cheek with my "Paes is a straight white cis guy" comment in the first place, but I realise that shit never translates well over the interbutts so that's my bad.

[Signora Pæsior]

If I wander too close to antifeminist tropes, Signora turns up the voltage.

And you love it.

[Placid Dingo]

It might be accurate to describe "Cis" as "your self-concept and social presentation matches the gender identity society expects from you based on your sex".

This is probably why cis is even in use; it's a lot SHORTER than the alternative, when you need to refer to it as a distinct idea.

[Freeky]

"I am just trying to be a better person."

I actually read this as genuine at first. My bad.
And then Roger was a successful troll.

Then Roger didn't take you seriously when you went off the fucking deep end.

Or words to that effect.

Well, I'm off to bed, to dream up more ways to keep a brother down.  Paes, be prepared to be consumed with Holy Wrath^TM at my outrageous acts of oppression on this very board, come tomorrow.  That way, you won't even notice when the people who are actually oppressing you come down on you like a ten ton sack of pigshit.

Way to go.

In fairness, no one's oppressing Paes. He's a straight white cis guy, bless him.

People say things like this when they buy into the idea of patriarchy, rather than kyriarchy.

It probably helps if you've turned a blind eye to systemic banking corruption throughout the globe, the increasingly punitive prison culture right in your own back yard, and living in a country that has some of the worst inequality in the world.

Those all are things that white cis guys are immune from, see.

The part where I said that my feminism is intersectional? Kind of assumes I "buy into" kyriarchy, but I'm sorry if I didn't specify that while hashing out replies on my phone

I'd also point out that the people who benefit the most from systemic banking corruption, our fucked-up prison culture (over half the prison population is Māori despite making up less than 15% of the total population), and income inequality (at the last census the mean income of Māori was 73.2% of that of non-Māori; women earn 2/5 of gross earnings) are upper-class white cis guys. Or perhaps it would be fairer to say that the system which currently allows this to happen was set up and is primarily run/controlled by white cis guys.

Which is not to say that Paes, personally, is not affected by living in a fucked-up system. Of course he is. We all are, because (whoo title reference) patriarchy/kyriarchy hurts men too.

And finally, I was being fairly tongue-in-cheek with my "Paes is a straight white cis guy" comment in the first place, but I realise that shit never translates well over the interbutts so that's my bad.

I don't know if you're doing the tongue in cheek thing again, but you argued the same thing as Net right there.

[Freeky]

Okay, so I think we need a reminding of what "cis" means: not just what is it, but also examples of it, and who isn't cis, and examples of that.  It looks like this is the biggest thorn in the conversation.

[Signora Pæsior]

Signora Paes (BTW I thought you were Paes in Drag, I got a confused)

Nah, we keep that for the bedroom.

[Placid Dingo]

Correct me if need be but I think I'm typical cis because I'm a dude who thinks of himself as a dude. What I do with my jiggly bits or anything else is irrelevant.

[Freeky]

Correct me if need be but I think I'm typical cis because I'm a dude who thinks of himself as a dude. What I do with my jiggly bits or anything else is irrelevant.

Yeah, but what does that entail?  If it isn't to do with sexuality at all, and Nigel (I think) mentioned something about your brain matches up with social customs of the body you have, that just further confused me as to what it means. 

I am definitely a woman, and that's the body I have, but I'd rather act like the guys than a dainty little flower. I'd rather tell an attractive guy "Hey, guy, you want me to take you home and make you call me Daddy?"  I'd rather be curmudgeonly and smart as a whip than something to look at (meh at that) and Nicey McDoormat.

Part of it might be my own set of defense mechanisms, and part of it is that I don't feel feminine enough (by that I mean the standard of femininity in our culture, whatever the hell it means to be a woman) to act like a female.  So what does that make me?

[Freeky]

I mean, I can't even picture myself acting like a woman/lady if what I have to act like is this subservient nothing hell bent on being a piece of art and nothing else.

And if I have it all wrong, that's because I don't understand what this concept is supposed to be, because nobody has explained it well enough to me.

[Freeky]

In short, You People make no sense.

[Signora Pæsior]

Correct me if need be but I think I'm typical cis because I'm a dude who thinks of himself as a dude. What I do with my jiggly bits or anything else is irrelevant.

Yeah, but what does that entail?  If it isn't to do with sexuality at all, and Nigel (I think) mentioned something about your brain matches up with social customs of the body you have, that just further confused me as to what it means. 

I am definitely a woman, and that's the body I have, but I'd rather act like the guys than a dainty little flower. I'd rather tell an attractive guy "Hey, guy, you want me to take you home and make you call me Daddy?"  I'd rather be curmudgeonly and smart as a whip than something to look at (meh at that) and Nicey McDoormat.

Part of it might be my own set of defense mechanisms, and part of it is that I don't feel feminine enough (by that I mean the standard of femininity in our culture, whatever the hell it means to be a woman) to act like a female.  So what does that make me?

If you're a woman, and you have a female body, then you're cis. Standards of femininity don't come into it (which is good, because they're a bit shit). A cisgender person is someone who identifies as they gender/sex they were assigned at birth.