Oh Noez! What about Teh Menz? -Patriarchy isn't a dude's friend EITHER!

[Juana]

Gender =/= sexuality. At all. Cis doesn't necessarily have anything to do with gender presentation, either, which is where I'm thinking you're getting the "not cis at all" thing. Are you pretty femme but still ID as a man? You're still a cis man.

I clarified that in a later post.  I meant it exactly as described.

Threatened privilege is definitely part of it, but what I was specifically describing was men who generally want to help women, but flip the fuck out when asked to think about/modify subtle parts of their behavior. Which is what Pent was doing.

And what I was doing for a moment, a few days back, although that's actually just how I work through things.  I gotta slam my head against it for a while.

But on the other hand, there has been some flipping out in the other direction.  You have to account for the fact that you're dealing with a lifetime of conditioning.  Becoming frustrated because your point isn't getting through is an indication that you might want to alter your method of explaining your point (but not your point) because, well, it isn't getting through.  And it doesn't matter why it's not getting through, if it's not getting through.  "He's not listening" can also be said "I haven't found a means to get by his filters".  Not talking about P3nt here, mind you, I'm talking about ANYBODY about ANYTHING.

Still catching up.

I realize I'm dealing with a life time of conditioning. Which is why I'm generally more patient with people who have expressed a desire to help.
I'm still working on a way to do that, yeah. "Here, you're demonstrating behavior x, which is oppressive," for ten pages doesn't seem to work.

Flip the fuck out? must have missed that one.

What actually happened was that I disagreed that certain words and phrases I use are tantamount to an attack on gender. You tried to explain to me why you thought I was badwrong. I explained that I'd heard this crap before so I understood but disagreed. You then explained it in a more condescending way, perhaps under the misguided impression that I was lying and didn't really understand such a complex notion, given that I only have a tiny little man brain. I restated my position a couple of times then gave up, since I wasn't getting through to you.

Flip the fuck out? No, I found it vaguely funny in a depressing, facepalmy kind of way.

Yeah, you did. You got aggressive with me for no apparently reason except that I was asking you to think about shit.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Flip the fuck out? must have missed that one.

Perception is everything, P3nt, especially in a medium where you don't get non-verbal cues.

[Juana]

Question:  Is it sexist if Rob Roy or Sir Mixalot says it?

Yes.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Question:  Is it sexist if Rob Roy or Sir Mixalot says it?

Yes.

[Juana]

Correct me if need be but I think I'm typical cis because I'm a dude who thinks of himself as a dude. What I do with my jiggly bits or anything else is irrelevant.

Yeah, but what does that entail?  If it isn't to do with sexuality at all, and Nigel (I think) mentioned something about your brain matches up with social customs of the body you have, that just further confused me as to what it means. 

I am definitely a woman, and that's the body I have, but I'd rather act like the guys than a dainty little flower. I'd rather tell an attractive guy "Hey, guy, you want me to take you home and make you call me Daddy?"  I'd rather be curmudgeonly and smart as a whip than something to look at (meh at that) and Nicey McDoormat.

Part of it might be my own set of defense mechanisms, and part of it is that I don't feel feminine enough (by that I mean the standard of femininity in our culture, whatever the hell it means to be a woman) to act like a female.  So what does that make me?

If you're a woman, and you have a female body, then you're cis. Standards of femininity don't come into it (which is good, because they're a bit shit). A cisgender person is someone who identifies as they gender/sex they were assigned at birth.

So you're including the intersex babies who were maimed and ended up being mostly okay with the gender/sex they got?  I swear I'm not being obtuse on purpose, but you need to type slowly and with small words when you talk to me. I'm a bit dense when I don't grasp something.

I would. I recently read a book on the subject and that's what I got out of it, although there are still people who end up transitioning (either naturally, since sometimes people pretty much legit go through a sex change at puberty for a variety of complicated reasons*, or choose to later)

[Juana]

Correct me if need be but I think I'm typical cis because I'm a dude who thinks of himself as a dude. What I do with my jiggly bits or anything else is irrelevant.

Yeah, but what does that entail?  If it isn't to do with sexuality at all, and Nigel (I think) mentioned something about your brain matches up with social customs of the body you have, that just further confused me as to what it means. 

I am definitely a woman, and that's the body I have, but I'd rather act like the guys than a dainty little flower. I'd rather tell an attractive guy "Hey, guy, you want me to take you home and make you call me Daddy?"  I'd rather be curmudgeonly and smart as a whip than something to look at (meh at that) and Nicey McDoormat.

Part of it might be my own set of defense mechanisms, and part of it is that I don't feel feminine enough (by that I mean the standard of femininity in our culture, whatever the hell it means to be a woman) to act like a female.  So what does that make me?

If you're a woman, and you have a female body, then you're cis. Standards of femininity don't come into it (which is good, because they're a bit shit). A cisgender person is someone who identifies as they gender/sex they were assigned at birth.

So you're including the intersex babies who were maimed and ended up being mostly okay with the gender/sex they got?  I swear I'm not being obtuse on purpose, but you need to type slowly and with small words when you talk to me. I'm a bit dense when I don't grasp something.

That is... a really good question, actually. Hold on.

(I'm aware that, like, no time is passing to you while I look this up. Feel free to find some shitty elevator music and stop reading for a while if you want, though.)

Okay, just having a quick look around, there doesn't really seem to be a definitive answer (not that there's ever really a definitive answer to anything). I know that in the queer communities I'm involved in, "assigned at birth" usually translates to "this baby has a vagina, therefore it is a girl", which is obviously not always the case, as that child could actually be a trans male. The issues surrounding intersex babies being assigned one gender or the other at birth has always been treated as a separate issue, in my experience. HOWEVER, from what I can see just in the references that I have bookmarked, intersex doesn't seem to be considered to fall under either trans or cis. I know there are also differing opinions on whether people who are genderqueer/agender can claim to fall under the trans* umbrella, though it's generally agreed that they're not cis. I'm (obviously) not the expert, though, and it'll be interesting to research a bit further.

I guess the only thing is that I disagree with your description, mostly the words "assigned at birth."  You don't get assigned a sex, you grow that way.  Otherwise, thanks for clearing that up for me.

I agree with the POV that divisive labels aren't good for the common W/E right now, as there are bigger battles to fight, but I also see how the term "normal" in a conversation like this isn't helpful at all, and alienating to people who don't fit "normal."  Outside of this kind of dialogue, it is as pointless as Roger was saying earlier.

Sex is your junk, so I'm not understanding this.

[Juana]

There is value to 'labels' in a context, I think, like Cain is saying. That is "Our current system is obviously biased against *label* and that needs to change".

However, the only way (IMO) to make shit better is to do it yourself and try to get other people to do it to. If you don't like the idea of being labeled, stop labeling yourself. Stop using labels for other people and demand that the assholes that label you take a good fucking look at their own shit... well, I mean, unless that would cause you to lose your job when you really need it... in that case maybe you have to be a little more politic with them.

We saw comments about uniforms in the first half of this discussion. Yet every label, when self applied is a uniform (even if you take it off sometimes). I AM A FEMINIST, I AM A TRANS, I AM A WHITE DUDE THATS PISSED OFF AT THE WHOLE FUCKING SYSTEM (we need a good label for that). When you say I am X, people will (because its how our brains work) presume that you will behave like everyone else they've met that wears that uniform.

We need to get out of our uniforms and run around NAKED with all of our human bits hanging out.

Yes.

In addition, when you wear a label willingly (or even unwillingly), you yourself begin to self-identify with that label.  It may start off as a description, but it becomes a uniform.

Now, if the subject comes up and is relevant, I don't see anything wrong with using the term as a convenient description.  If for some bizarre reason your sexual orientation becomes important, then it's perfectly appropriate to use the correct term for it...I just almost never see any time that this happens.

In fact, the only time I hear these labels is as a perjorative.  At least IRL.

No. I'll explain why later, but no.

[Juana]

I've known some pretty misogynist gay men that weren't cis at all.

I just wanted to pick this out because I don't understand it. They were gay men who did not identify as men? Or do you mean they were born as women but identify as gay men, and are misogynistic? It's the "not cis at all" part that's throwing me.

I mean they are Gay men who identify as women, but hate women.

People are really fucking strange.

Absolutely none of that makes sense. Are you sure you're using the correct pronouns or gender names? Because a gay transgal who is still a misogynist makes sense, but you can't be a man who is a woman (exactly, anyway; genderfluid and bigender is different).

[The Good Reverend Roger]

There is value to 'labels' in a context, I think, like Cain is saying. That is "Our current system is obviously biased against *label* and that needs to change".

However, the only way (IMO) to make shit better is to do it yourself and try to get other people to do it to. If you don't like the idea of being labeled, stop labeling yourself. Stop using labels for other people and demand that the assholes that label you take a good fucking look at their own shit... well, I mean, unless that would cause you to lose your job when you really need it... in that case maybe you have to be a little more politic with them.

We saw comments about uniforms in the first half of this discussion. Yet every label, when self applied is a uniform (even if you take it off sometimes). I AM A FEMINIST, I AM A TRANS, I AM A WHITE DUDE THATS PISSED OFF AT THE WHOLE FUCKING SYSTEM (we need a good label for that). When you say I am X, people will (because its how our brains work) presume that you will behave like everyone else they've met that wears that uniform.

We need to get out of our uniforms and run around NAKED with all of our human bits hanging out.

Yes.

In addition, when you wear a label willingly (or even unwillingly), you yourself begin to self-identify with that label.  It may start off as a description, but it becomes a uniform.

Now, if the subject comes up and is relevant, I don't see anything wrong with using the term as a convenient description.  If for some bizarre reason your sexual orientation becomes important, then it's perfectly appropriate to use the correct term for it...I just almost never see any time that this happens.

In fact, the only time I hear these labels is as a perjorative.  At least IRL.

No. I'll explain why later, but no.

Well, yeah, actually.  I never hear people bring up things like homosexuality, etc, in anything other than a perjorative sense.  For people - at least around me, I obviously can't speak for everyone, etc - teh subject never comes up, because it's not relevant.

One exception:  Freaky once had a thing for this one guy, Mark.  We told her that Mark was Gay, and while a really nice guy, would have no romantic interest in her (after a little prompting from Mark).  But that's sort of an informational thing, which is not the same as labelling.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Flip the fuck out? must have missed that one.

Perception is everything, P3nt, especially in a medium where you don't get non-verbal cues.

True that. I guess I got a pretty vicious sense of humour. Especially if you can't see the smirk on my face.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've known some pretty misogynist gay men that weren't cis at all.

I just wanted to pick this out because I don't understand it. They were gay men who did not identify as men? Or do you mean they were born as women but identify as gay men, and are misogynistic? It's the "not cis at all" part that's throwing me.

I mean they are Gay men who identify as women, but hate women.

People are really fucking strange.

Absolutely none of that makes sense. Are you sure you're using the correct pronouns or gender names? Because a gay transgal who is still a misogynist makes sense, but you can't be a man who is a woman (exactly, anyway; genderfluid and bigender is different).

No, it doesn't make sense.  People often don't.

Gay guy, identifies as female, hates women.  <--- what am I doing wrong, here?

[P3nT4gR4m]

I've known some pretty misogynist gay men that weren't cis at all.

I just wanted to pick this out because I don't understand it. They were gay men who did not identify as men? Or do you mean they were born as women but identify as gay men, and are misogynistic? It's the "not cis at all" part that's throwing me.

I mean they are Gay men who identify as women, but hate women.

People are really fucking strange.

Absolutely none of that makes sense. Are you sure you're using the correct pronouns or gender names? Because a gay transgal who is still a misogynist makes sense, but you can't be a man who is a woman (exactly, anyway; genderfluid and bigender is different).

No, it doesn't make sense.  People often don't.

Gay guy, identifies as female, hates women.  <--- what am I doing wrong, here?

I'd go so far as to say I can see a kind of twisted logic - jealous cos they're born that way and he has to try so fucking hard?

[Juana]

I've known some pretty misogynist gay men that weren't cis at all.

I just wanted to pick this out because I don't understand it. They were gay men who did not identify as men? Or do you mean they were born as women but identify as gay men, and are misogynistic? It's the "not cis at all" part that's throwing me.

I mean they are Gay men who identify as women, but hate women.

People are really fucking strange.

Absolutely none of that makes sense. Are you sure you're using the correct pronouns or gender names? Because a gay transgal who is still a misogynist makes sense, but you can't be a man who is a woman (exactly, anyway; genderfluid and bigender is different).

No, it doesn't make sense.  People often don't.

Gay guy, identifies as female, hates women.  <--- what am I doing wrong, here?

I have no idea. I'd have to meet the person in question.

But then they aren't HUMAN bits, they are label-bits, which therefore are discriminated against :P

Gender is a societal uniform you know. However, then again, what isn't?
If you aren't manufactured human A that is exactly like manufactured human B, then there will be a problem.
Also, even posing on that, manufactured human A might have went swimming one day and his hair turned temporarily green, which is HERESY. Chlorine is the devil. Manufactured human B punches and ridicules him, while A feels shame and guilt and tries to go back into the fold.

As far as labels go, a lot of people want them. A lot of people wish to be seen as "white guy" or "Black girl" or what have you. It is what the self identifies with. It is not "we are human beings" which I believe it's the way it should be. Since that happens, a pile of "In your face" does from time to time need to happen. You may be white or black or whatever, but everyone still feels emotion, has thoughts, experiences, etc and sometimes you have to shout at some people so you don't go on a killing spree.
That's where the damage of labels comes in. The fact that they exist in reference to human beings is just insane to me.
But since they DO exist, we do need things like feminism, the marches and what have you, as long as it stays educational and not empowerment. Through exchange of ideas and education you should never feel or WANT to feel like a soldier fighting a war, as then you simply fight for a position on the monkey council. I also believe that that mindset causes more enemies and rebellion than getting your point across.

I apologize if this has been covered already but I wanted to drop a thought in last night I was too tired to post it and remembered it this morning.

If you don't have empowerment, why bother? Because empowerment is increasing the power of oppressed groups, and if you're telling me that as a female, I still should have the same political, social, and economic power as women before me did, then you really don't understand the whole point of any social movement. It's necessary to balance the scales.

[Juana]

Correct me if need be but I think I'm typical cis because I'm a dude who thinks of himself as a dude. What I do with my jiggly bits or anything else is irrelevant.

Yeah, but what does that entail?  If it isn't to do with sexuality at all, and Nigel (I think) mentioned something about your brain matches up with social customs of the body you have, that just further confused me as to what it means. 

I am definitely a woman, and that's the body I have, but I'd rather act like the guys than a dainty little flower. I'd rather tell an attractive guy "Hey, guy, you want me to take you home and make you call me Daddy?"  I'd rather be curmudgeonly and smart as a whip than something to look at (meh at that) and Nicey McDoormat.

Part of it might be my own set of defense mechanisms, and part of it is that I don't feel feminine enough (by that I mean the standard of femininity in our culture, whatever the hell it means to be a woman) to act like a female.  So what does that make me?

This highlights the main problem I have with the term cis, which is that it reinforces the idea that gender and sex are a set of binaries rather than a group of spectrums, which is, IMO, exactly what we need to be pulling away from if we want a truly egalitarian society. Am I cis, according to the accepted definition? I'm gonna go with yes because I like my body (especially the tits) and I like to wear dresses and makeup, even though in other ways I've always been more of a dude and "cis" makes me cringe. But for people looking for a way to pigeonhole me, I guess they can use that.

Ditto. It also implies that gender binaries are the ONLY gender systems that can and should exist. Which is pretty bigoted and ethnocentric.

[Juana]

But since they DO exist, we do need things like feminism, the marches and what have you, as long as it stays educational and not empowerment.

I am by no means suggesting that people should not find common cause.  I am also not telling anyone to reject their identity, whether it be cis, Gay, whatever.  Instead, I am saying that people should not allow themselves to be defined by such a minor thing, and labels are just that.

And yes, this "minor" thing may not be very minor in the eyes of mainstream society.  But I do not identify in any way with mainstream society.  They are not on my side, so why should I be on theirs?

Leaving the effects of society aside, are you your orientation?  Are you your "race"?  Your gender?  Isn't that the same thing as becoming your job?

The thing is, it's really really hard to opt out of society. Human beings need societies. And this part of the conversation particularly makes me want to cry, because it's not like I can avoid discrimination, or rape, just by waving a magic wand and saying I don't recognize it.

This is actually like 80% of what the Labels thread I'm still gonna start is about.